Baroness Thatcher - Dead / RIP

[Common as Mook]

Stay classy UK

BBC News - Bristol police officers hurt at anti-Thatcher demo

 

[HovaGirl]

I'm nearly 60, so I was very much around in the 70s. I remember it differently from you, however, as a fairer, gentler more equal society. Inflation was indeed quite high, but that largely originated in the oil price hikes of the early 80s. One advantage of strong unions was that they managed to negotiate wage increases which took account of inflation, so that they were still able to afford their shopping in Tescos. Compare that to the present time, post-Thatcher, where unions are so weak that most working people's real wages have been falling for the past five years.

I don't see how the inflation of the mid-seventies could originate in the oil price hikes of the early 80s! Many red-brick universities, such as Sussex, opened in the late 60s, offering many degrees in sociology. They were hotbeds of Marxism, so that by the mid-seventies, Marxism had trounced the more gentle, intellectual socialism of old Labour, and political views became more extreme and polarised. I was a Labour voter in those days, but I was never a Marxist, because true Marxism had been misinterpreted and hijacked by the growing cult of the politics of guilt. It continues today with green policies, global warming and suchlike. But the proletariat did rise up. Not through revolution, but through education. The unions of the seventies were self-serving Tsars, the forerunners of the blue, yellow and red political Tsars of today. Margaret Thatcher was the last of the type of politician who believed in her country and worked for her country, whether you agree with her policies or not. Today's politicians are nothing more than career sock-puppets who see politics as a personal piggy-bank and the route to a board job and TV career when they leave Westminster. They change their minds dependent on which lobby-group or multinational has the upper hand.

 

[dingodan]

So, no taxation then. How are you going to pay for things like the roads, street lighting, refuse collection etc etc. The list is endless but healthcare is probably the most relevant.

No Income tax, not no taxation at all. Although I would like to see as little taxation as possible. And the government is the worst possible provider of any product or service, and that includes health, so I would rather that health services were not delivered by the government anyway. The cost goes up, the quality goes down, and doctors and patients have little or no control.

Cue the accusation that I am selfish and advocating mass deaths.

"Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to it being done at all. We disapprove of state education. Then the socialists say that we are opposed to any education. We object to state religion. Then the socialists say that we want no religion at all. We object to state enforced equality. Then they say that we are against equality. And so on and so on. It is as if the socialists were to accuse us of not wanting people to eat because we do not want the state to raise grain."

- Frederic Bastiat.

 

[Triggaaar]

I had hoped that more NSC members would surprise me.

 

[dingodan]

I don't see how the inflation of the mid-seventies could originate in the oil price hikes of the early 80s! Many red-brick universities, such as Sussex, opened in the late 60s, offering many degrees in sociology. They were hotbeds of Marxism, so that by the mid-seventies, Marxism had trounced the more gentle, intellectual socialism of old Labour, and political views became more extreme and polarised. I was a Labour voter in those days, but I was never a Marxist, because true Marxism had been misinterpreted and hijacked by the growing cult of the politics of guilt. It continues today with green policies, global warming and suchlike. But the proletariat did rise up. Not through revolution, but through education. The unions of the seventies were self-serving Tsars, the forerunners of the blue, yellow and red political Tsars of today. Margaret Thatcher was the last of the type of politician who believed in her country and worked for her country, whether you agree with her policies or not. Today's politicians are nothing more than career sock-puppets who see politics as a personal piggy-bank and the route to a board job and TV career when they leave Westminster. They change their minds dependent on which lobby-group or multinational has the upper hand.

 

[The Spanish]

Think of Thatcher however you want. One thing is fact. She counted more in her life than many on here, supporters or detractors, spitefull fools or suppine bum lickers will ever count in theirs! She'll be remembered by history. We all take a bit part so have your say all of you and reflect in the mirror.

i am not sure why being remembered or going down in history is something to aspire to or proves you are a better human being. most people who go down in history do so by killing lots of other human beings or at least being responsible for all sorts of upheaval. this is nothing to do with thatcher but just to say as an argument i think its nonsensical. famous or influential= a success as a human being? nah, dont think so. i will take the people who live quietly and gently any day of the week.

 

[kjgood]

The lady had more balls and foresight than any other politican since her resignation. I didnt always agree with her policies, but then I agreed with her more than I agree with the muppets running the country for the last twenty years.

As an ex squaddie her government looked after me better than any before or since, so you have to speak as you find. I understand the hate some sections of the community feel towards her, but............... what blame should the unions take in this, miners,dockers,car workers, dustmen,firemen, rail,teachers, civil servants etc etc who were holding the country to ransom at the time. Something had to be done.

As a soldier I ended up being a dustman and a fireman clearing up the mess the unions created and yes i do believe in unions to a certain extent and that everyone should have the right to be represented and treated fairly.

For those of you old enough to remember the fuel shortages of the 70's and the continuous striking by the unions someone had to do something. Would the 'leaders of today' and i use the term very very loosely have the balls to deal with the issues.

For me Maggie was the right person at the right time. Dont get me started on the Falklands!!!!!!!!!

 

[HovaGirl]

It's not a cop out, most people will not argue that she instigated seismic changes that still impact on our lives today and will do for a long time to come. You can't wholly separate the financial crisis of 2008 from Thatcher's deregulation of the banks in the 80s, you can't dismiss the housing issues that face the country today without reference to the (continuing) discounted sell off of social housing.

The biggest thing for me that we can directly attribute to Thatcher is the lack of social cohesion today - Now it is me, rather than us and I rather than we, and for that, I will never forgive her.

I agree that Thatcher was responsible for the breakdown of social cohesion and the culture of "greed is good" which grew in the 90s. And as I said upthread, I think her policy of selling off council houses was a disaster. However, I don't think her deregulation of the banks is directly responsible for the global financial problems of today, because, initially, Great Britain plc made a great deal of money out of it and helped to stabilise the economy. Gordon Brown went further, in 1997, when he made the Bank of England independent and allowed all banking hell to be let loose, particularly on the back of the deregulation of banks in the USA which unleashed a torrent our banks couldn't cope with and, like the domino effect, is destroying banks around the world.

 

[HovaGirl]

Given it costs no more to collect the rubbish from a £1m house than say a £150k one why should everyone not pay the same for the same service ? When I go into Tescos they don't charge me based on my income or house value.

That said Council Tax is equally unfair - house value doesn't necessarily correlate with an ability to pay ( especially for older people ).

A local income tax would be fairer.

Yes, the old rates system was a fairer form of local tax revenue. It was based on the nominal rental value of a property and that would be based on how many people could live in it. A 50-bed mansion could, theoretically, house 50 people, whereas a 2-bed house could only house about 2-4 people (though some squeeze in more if they can).

 

[HovaGirl]

Of course it is. If successive governments failed to change her policies, then what we are left with are still her policies.

Which any Government in between could have changed or reversed. But they didn't. They developed her policies instead.

 

[The Spanish]

Street parties in Brixton & Glasgow last night.

yes deliberately misleading headline in the Guardian, too embarassing and wishful thinking for words. a few SWP dickheads and daft govan commies. the rest of the country maintained a level of dignity, despite her divisiveness. thats what you should be proud of, not a load of clueless attention seeking muppets.

 

[HovaGirl]

Hmm, so the country is now full of people who cannot make their own judgements and decisions on how they run their lives and think because of Maggie. I don't buy that.

Well, the country is divided into two groups: those who can make their own judgements, and those who think they cannot, and blame Maggie.

 

[soistes]

I don't see how the inflation of the mid-seventies could originate in the oil price hikes of the early 80s! Many red-brick universities, such as Sussex, opened in the late 60s, offering many degrees in sociology. They were hotbeds of Marxism, so that by the mid-seventies, Marxism had trounced the more gentle, intellectual socialism of old Labour, and political views became more extreme and polarised. I was a Labour voter in those days, but I was never a Marxist, because true Marxism had been misinterpreted and hijacked by the growing cult of the politics of guilt. It continues today with green policies, global warming and suchlike. But the proletariat did rise up. Not through revolution, but through education. The unions of the seventies were self-serving Tsars, the forerunners of the blue, yellow and red political Tsars of today. Margaret Thatcher was the last of the type of politician who believed in her country and worked for her country, whether you agree with her policies or not. Today's politicians are nothing more than career sock-puppets who see politics as a personal piggy-bank and the route to a board job and TV career when they leave Westminster. They change their minds dependent on which lobby-group or multinational has the upper hand.

Yes, that was a typo. Sorry about that -- the OPEC price rises were in the early 70s, so they did lead to the inflation that I referred to.

I agree with you about today's politicians, but not really about red brick universities (of which Sussex was never one -- also Sussex was founded in 1961 not the late 60s).
Red brick university - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The red brick universities were founded in the late 19th century (Bristol, Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool etc), and were not really hotbeds of Marxism, although it was possible to study sociology at all of them. Marxism is an economic doctrine, in any case, which again long predates the 1960s, so I'm not really clear what point you are making.
Anyway -- no one could argue that the Labour party in the 1970s was a hotbed of Marxism: Callaghan, Wilson and co?? Even Tony Benn was never really a Marxist.
There were some fringe Marxist groups which emerged in the Labour party in the 1980s (but this was during, not before the Thatcher years): Militant tendency and all that, but Marxism was never dominant in the Labour party.

 

[HovaGirl]

My opposition to my being taxed, is an opposition to your being taxed. And everyone being taxed. So it's hardly selfish. And your labor is not a legitimate target for taxation in my opinion. If a tax is placed on fuel, and the tax is used to pay for roads - no problem. Nobody is forced to used a motor vehicle, and if they do they contribute to the infrastructure which makes it possible.

When the government takes a portion of your income, it is taking something to which it has no natural or logical right. The implication when the state takes a portion of your income, before it gets to you, is that it owns you and your income, and it permits you to keep some of it. There is no legitimate basis for an income tax, none.

The function of a Government is to safeguard the people, and the cost of this is borne by the people through their income tax.

 

[Seagull58]

ERM, no, she presided over a massive increase in unemployment.

and a subsequent massive reduction in unemployment.

 

[HovaGirl]

Yes, that was a typo. Sorry about that -- the OPEC price rises were in the early 70s, so they did lead to the inflation that I referred to.

I agree with you about today's politicians, but not really about red brick universities (of which Sussex was never one -- also Sussex was founded in 1961 not the late 60s).
Red brick university - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The red brick universities were founded in the late 19th century (Bristol, Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool etc), and were not really hotbeds of Marxism, although it was possible to study sociology at all of them. Marxism is an economic doctrine, in any case, which again long predates the 1960s, so I'm not really clear what point you are making.
Anyway -- no one could argue that the Labour party in the 1970s was a hotbed of Marxism: Callaghan, Wilson and co?? Even Tony Benn was never really a Marxist.
There were some fringe Marxist groups which emerged in the Labour party in the 1980s (but this was during, not before the Thatcher years): Militant tendency and all that, but Marxism was never dominant in the Labour party.

Well, we'll have to disagree there. The aristocrat, Tony Benn, was a Marxist through and through and an inverted snob. Do you remember him going round to meetings with his own tin mug, because he thought that's what the riff-raff drank from? As to the redbricks, yes, Sussex opened in 1961. And, yes, sociology had been a university subject for years. The growth of Sociology (Social Science) escalated during the 1960s and 1970s, to my mind, because it was the original "soft option degree". Many people studied it without understanding it, but spouted all the facts-that-weren't-facts they had memorised.

 

[GNF on Tour]

Well, the country is divided into two groups: those who can make their own judgements, and those who think they cannot, and blame Maggie.

Honestly, is that a serious reply or are you bored and on a wind-up?

 

[GNF on Tour]

Which any Government in between could have changed or reversed. But they didn't. They developed her policies instead.

Please tell me how any government would have gone about reversing the large privitisation programme with bankrupting the country?

 

[glasfryn]

exactly what 'FAVOURS' would you be expecting by any government? something for nothing i'm thinking...

we really could have done without the pole tax we had a shit hole of a flat above our business that the landlord done nothing to for decades but we had to fight tooth and nail not to pay as it did not have a kitchen, we served at least three large building sites that closed over night even though the work had not been finished, business rates were jacked up, oh I I would add interest rates through the roof
we managed to keep a roof over our heads ....just but many of our friends who had bought into the buying of their council houses and then lost their jobs, houses, and in two cases their family and in one case his life(he thought that taking an overdose was the way out).
if it had been now I have no doubt that this government would bend over backwards to help small business ....from this I glean that the tories have learned one lesson from those times.........................but most obviousy this is the only one

 

[coagulantwolf]

As a 20 year old lad myself, I find it amusing how suddenly people of my age are becoming such strongly, outspoken, knowledgage politicians. Most the people I have spoken to weren't even born at the time, myself included obviously!

You ask anyone my age of previous prime ministers, she will probably be one of the few they actually know.