[Albion] Article - Patience is Needed with Potter's work in Progress

[Guinness Boy]

A lot of talk about our current position and Graham Potter over the last couple of days. I started to reply to one and it became a bit too long and ended up as an article. The key things for me is that the change in our style to more possession based football and less sitting back has increased expectations - but we need to remember this is a work in progress and we are still a member of the "other 14" with a relatively small budget.

https://nortr3nixy.nimpr.uk/content.php?832-Patience-is-Needed-with-Potter-s-work-in-Progress

As ever, just my opinion and discussion welcome.

 

[DavePage]

A lot of talk about our current position and Graham Potter over the last couple of days. I started to reply to one and it became a bit too long and ended up as an article. The key things for me is that the change in our style to more possession based football and less sitting back has increased expectations - but we need to remember this is a work in progress and we are still a member of the "other 14" with a relatively small budget.

https://nortr3nixy.nimpr.uk/content.php?832-Patience-is-Needed-with-Potter-s-work-in-Progress

As ever, just my opinion and discussion welcome.

I think the thumbs down should return, or would that be too negative for this board?

 

[Machiavelli]

I think the thumbs down should return, or would that be too negative for this board?

Why are you making this comment on this thread, and at this stage?

 

[BensGrandad]

Realistically relegation doesn't rely on patience but lack of points.

 

[dazzer6666]

A lot of talk about our current position and Graham Potter over the last couple of days. I started to reply to one and it became a bit too long and ended up as an article. The key things for me is that the change in our style to more possession based football and less sitting back has increased expectations - but we need to remember this is a work in progress and we are still a member of the "other 14" with a relatively small budget.

https://nortr3nixy.nimpr.uk/content.php?832-Patience-is-Needed-with-Potter-s-work-in-Progress

As ever, just my opinion and discussion welcome.

Fair summary I would say - worth reading along with the SSN piece too

https://www.skysports.com/football/...s-brighton-wont-deviate-from-playing-identity

 

[Perfidious Albion]

A well written, balanced article. We cannot expect to carry all before us, but on the day it is disappointing when we have looked as though we are going to. Just have to keep going...

 

[dazzer6666]

.................doesn't much more to click for us to end the season on 45-50 points. I can see close to 40 being needed for safety this season so may be a bit hairy for a while.

 

[Cowfold Seagull]

A lot of talk about our current position and Graham Potter over the last couple of days. I started to reply to one and it became a bit too long and ended up as an article. The key things for me is that the change in our style to more possession based football and less sitting back has increased expectations - but we need to remember this is a work in progress and we are still a member of the "other 14" with a relatively small budget.

https://nortr3nixy.nimpr.uk/content.php?832-Patience-is-Needed-with-Potter-s-work-in-Progress

As ever, just my opinion and discussion welcome.

Nope, not only your opinion at all, it's also mine, and l'm sure that of many other people too.

It was always going to be thus, a work in progress, and will take some considerable time to come to complete fruition. The people who thought this was going to be a seamless change which would bring about instand success are very sadly mistaken. There is even a sizeable minority on here who seem to be under the delusion that this time next season we will be pushing for a place in the Europa League. That is not going to happen.

 

[Weststander]

I’m all for Potter and his far better brand of football. I just wish that defensively we were able to shut out opponents.

But it would be interesting to see if just a few worriers here, grew into something far more substantial in numbers if we’re bottom 4 or 5 come February.

Always lurking behind the GP revolution (as there was the with CH’s two CH PL seasons), is the real prospect of relegation. Which would be devastating for the club at all levels, not least manageable financial losses would become huge again, plus Mooy and Maupay wouldn’t wait around. With those stakes, we can see why virtually every relegation threatened PL club in history blinks first ..... sackings, January spending sprees, abandoning a philosophy for pragmatism.

Fine lines. Just 180 minutes of football against Bmuff and Villa could well determine our trajectory for the remainder of the season.

 

[Machiavelli]

Broadly, I think you're right. I'd emphasise something else, however.
Many want to blame our finishing. Others the leakier defensive work. What I want to bemoan is our decision-making and creativity in the final third.
Finishing
I think this has been OK and perhaps even slightly better than the other clubs more than likely to finish in the bottom half of the table. Our defenders really are chipping in with set piece goals. Maupay has bagged seven half way through the season and, if he continues this, it'll be more than what Murray has achieved in a PL season. That'll be some achievement for a 23yo playing his first season in the PL. Connolly will bag more, but we can't expect too much of him, and I don't think he's as effective playing on his own up-top (which is how we'll have to play for a lot of the season). As has been the case throughout our PL residency, the return from out-wide (to the extent that this still exists) and midfield that needs development.
Defending
Again, this hasn't been as bad as others have made out. Webster has had too many wobbles, but he offers so much in a footballing sense that I can understand why Potter perseveres with him. I think he's more suited to playing in a back three. Beyond that, Dunk has been great, Duffy too when he plays, although his ability on the ball (and its importance for how we play) is the reason for the paucity of starts. Burn has outperformed most of our expectations but, that said, I still have doubts about him. Montoya has been OK, but defensive doubts remain. Bernardo, I'd like to see more of.
Final third decision-making/creativity
If it is the case that our finishing has not been that shabby for a bottom half team and we've enjoyed good possession stats that hasn't been purely confined to our half and the centre circle area, then there must be a reason why we don't have some more points. It's here that I think there's greatest room for improvement. Too often we overplay, when shooting is the best option, and this is our greatest problem. At times we need to shoot earlier, and I think it's the midfield players that are the chief culprits here (with Gross arguably the biggest) -- both Connolly and Maupay get shots off early, which is a good sign for strikers. Then there is the Bissouma problem, who shoots too much or too early -- the starkest example here was against Palace when Mooy had acres of space. Then there is the Propper (and, to a much lesser extent, Stephens) shooting accuracy problem -- Propper is enjoying the new regime, but he needs to hit the target more often than not whereas, currently, it happens rarely. Alzate has had a few good openings but is still yet to break his duck -- it'll come, and that can be explained by his youth and inexperience. Trossard and Mooy look better on this front, and we should expect some more goals and assists from the pair of them.

 

[crookie]

The big difference for me is that the sense of expectation around the club has increased. We are playing better football against the better teams, therefore results should be better

This is it in a nutshell for me, we were fatalistic towards the end of last season, hope over expectation in getting anything out of games. Blowing Spurs away at home, suddenly made us all sit up and think that this is what we're capable of. When we don't reach those heights, and let slip points from winning positions, as has happened too often, it is disappointing. Potter's style has made us believe more in our squad, but yes, most of us understand it is a work in progress and there will be high's and low's. All the people I go with/meet up with are fully behind Potter and what he is trying to do, and are on the whole really enjoying the season so far.

 

[LamieRobertson]

Realistically relegation doesn't rely on patience but lack of points.

Not necessarily the case ..I’d say Tony Bloom was very patient towards the end of last season (say after the Cardiff defeat) and it paid off

 

[Guinness Boy]

Realistically relegation doesn't rely on patience but lack of points.

I'm really not sure what you're getting at here. We've got 20 points from the first half of the season and 40 should be enough to keep us up. The whole point of the article is that I expect things to pick up from here as Potter gets more time and his kind of players. So 40 is the minimum I expect us to pick up - with patience.

Frankly it's embarassing how many people on here lose their shit when we lose away at a big six club. Spurs were in the Champions League final in May.

 

[darkwolf666]

I think the thumbs down should return, or would that be too negative for this board?

W@nker...

 

[BensGrandad]

I'm really not sure what you're getting at here. We've got 20 points from the first half of the season and 40 should be enough to keep us up. The whole point of the article is that I expect things to pick up from here as Potter gets more time and his kind of players. So 40 is the minimum I expect us to pick up - with patience.

Frankly it's embarassing how many people on here lose their shit when we lose away at a big six club. Spurs were in the Champions League final in May.

It is not the fact we lost away to Tottenham but the manner in which we did it. I do not believe, unlike many on here, that we played well perhaps the first half we were ok but in the 2nd they upped their game and we didn't compete to the same extent. We didn't bring on any game changers to help this. Coupled with the dismal performance against Sheff Utd and the manner that we let Palace back into the game the signs are from good. It will take something special to get another 20 points in the 2nd half of the season.

 

[DavePage]

W@nker...

you certainly are, along with anyone else that can only spout out negative things about the club

 

[Guinness Boy]

Broadly, I think you're right. I'd emphasise something else, however.
Many want to blame our finishing. Others the leakier defensive work. What I want to bemoan is our decision-making and creativity in the final third.
Final third decision-making/creativity
If it is the case that our finishing has not been that shabby for a bottom half team and we've enjoyed good possession stats that hasn't been purely confined to our half and the centre circle area, then there must be a reason why we don't have some more points. It's here that I think there's greatest room for improvement. Too often we overplay, when shooting is the best option, and this is our greatest problem. At times we need to shoot earlier, and I think it's the midfield players that are the chief culprits here (with Gross arguably the biggest) -- both Connolly and Maupay get shots off early, which is a good sign for strikers. Then there is the Bissouma problem, who shoots too much or too early -- the starkest example here was against Palace when Mooy had acres of space. Then there is the Propper (and, to a much lesser extent, Stephens) shooting accuracy problem -- Propper is enjoying the new regime, but he needs to hit the target more often than not whereas, currently, it happens rarely. Alzate has had a few good openings but is still yet to break his duck -- it'll come, and that can be explained by his youth and inexperience. Trossard and Mooy look better on this front, and we should expect some more goals and assists from the pair of them.

I don't disagree and this is a matter of (my, probably wrong) semantics. I tend to roll finishing and final third decision making in to the same thing. i.e. we have a chance ON and do not take it. I can remember quite a few examples of exactly what you are talking about here and, anecdotally, this is something that is a bit of a hobby horse for the guy I go to games with -he's blamed decision making and speed of pass for us not scoring nearly as many.

When I did a brief re-wind of the season to date in my mind I remembered the game where Maupay missed three sitters (yet I can't ermember which one this was! Norwich? Leicester?), the Dunk header v Palace and Maupay's instinctive miss from a yard on the cross drop. And when I have checked our xG it has generally been above what we actually scored (Palace and Newcastle were the examples of it being criminally so, hence mentioning them). But yes, the cause is probably decision making and my brain rolls that in to the single word "finishing".

 

[Guinness Boy]

It is not the fact we lost away to Tottenham but the manner in which we did it. I do not believe, unlike many on here, that we played well perhaps the first half we were ok but in the 2nd they upped their game and we didn't compete to the same extent. We didn't bring on any game changers to help this. Coupled with the dismal performance against Sheff Utd and the manner that we let Palace back into the game the signs are from good. It will take something special to get another 20 points in the 2nd half of the season.

Given the number of times you've admitted on here that you were wrong, that's priceless.

On Amazon the pundits unanimously said we were the better side in the first half. These pundits were Glenn "Spurs" Hoddle, Jermain "Spurs" Jenas and "Dancing" Alan "Palace" Pardew.

We'll see anyway when I bounce this after we've stayed up.

 

[Machiavelli]

I don't disagree and this is a matter of (my, probably wrong) semantics. I tend to roll finishing and final third decision making in to the same thing. i.e. we have a chance ON and do not take it. I can remember quite a few examples of exactly what you are talking about here and, anecdotally, this is something that is a bit of a hobby horse for the guy I go to games with -he's blamed decision making and speed of pass for us not scoring nearly as many.

When I did a brief re-wind of the season to date in my mind I remembered the game where Maupay missed three sitters (yet I can't ermember which one this was! Norwich? Leicester?), the Dunk header v Palace and Maupay's instinctive miss from a yard on the cross drop. And when I have checked our xG it has generally been above what we actually scored (Palace and Newcastle were the examples of it being criminally so, hence mentioning them). But yes, the cause is probably decision making and my brain rolls that in to the single word "finishing".

Not to worry. It's a fine article, and great discussion point. I just wanted to take a different tack to emphasise the point I wanted to make. Others will disagree with this, and the xG could point to either below average finishing or sub-standard decision-making/final pass/not shooting when well set.
Maupay did have a bad spell in terms of finishing and, you're right, there was one game when he missed too many good chances. But, overall, seven is a decent return at the half-way point. He's relying on less penalties than Murray has done in the past, and the range of goals he's scored is impressive and really encouraging.

 

[darkwolf666]

you certainly are, along with anyone else that can only spout out negative things about the club

What are you on about, the "article" wasn't negative, unlike your comment... Did you even bother to read it?