An afterlife for Atheists?

[dingodan]

Dunno. Nobody's ever come back to tell us IMHO 'we are stardust' sounds infinitely more scientific and proveable than the pearly gates / eternal burny fire thing or the four and twenty virgins thing.

 

[desprateseagull]

work hard, live clean, and some day, my son, you too can be invited to the heaven that is the 1901 club.. yak yak..

 

[Crawley 'Gull]

A genuine question for atheists/materialists: If you genuinely believe that there’s no spiritual world and that all there is in the world is just matter (atoms and molecules, the cells that comprise our body etc), how would you explain our appreciation of truth, wisdom and beauty, the loathing of evil, longing for ultimate fulfilment, Love etc

There is no way that chemical reactions and electrical impulses among the brain’s cells can explain a sense of right and wrong, the beauty of a sunset, or the rational and moral choices we continually make. No material of any kind, either in the brain or outside of it, has the qualities to explain our ability to understand ideas such as truth, justice, mercy and love. These concepts are totally non-physical. They do not originate within the brain , nor are they a conditioned response to anything anywhere within the entire physical universe.

 

[One Love]

Not a miracle - a scientific theory.

Something happens without a cause and that's not a miracle.

Please explain.

 

[beorhthelm]

These concepts are totally non-physical. They do not originate within the brain , nor are they a conditioned response to anything anywhere within the entire physical universe.

cod shit. they are measurable responces within the brain and all subjective. your "beauty" in the sunset may be fear for another culture. the morals most societies conform to are pragmatic and practical responses to dealing with complex social groups and can be seen in primates and other mammals. truth is just that, facts about a matter and wisdom is insightful application of our intelligence. it is our inteligence that creates most emotion and subjective thoughts as we think about, around and through things, real or abstract. where or how intelligence is created, now thats the really interesting question.

 

[Monkey Man]

A genuine question for atheists/materialists: If you genuinely believe that there’s no spiritual world and that all there is in the world is just matter (atoms and molecules, the cells that comprise our body etc), how would you explain our appreciation of truth, wisdom and beauty, the loathing of evil, longing for ultimate fulfilment, Love etc

There is no way that chemical reactions and electrical impulses among the brain’s cells can explain a sense of right and wrong, the beauty of a sunset, or the rational and moral choices we continually make. No material of any kind, either in the brain or outside of it, has the qualities to explain our ability to understand ideas such as truth, justice, mercy and love. These concepts are totally non-physical. They do not originate within the brain , nor are they a conditioned response to anything anywhere within the entire physical universe.

Pretty much every impulse we experience can be traced back to basic instincts: survival, procreation, the survival of the species. These things may seem pretty remote at times, in our 21st century lives, but our evolution has relied on us becoming in expert in finding safe places to live, recognising and dealing with danger, identifying suitable breeding partners and tribal groups. Truth, justice, mercy and love could be argued to be qualities that help tribal groups stay strong and prosperous. We value them for that reason because without them, life (and survival) is simply more difficult.

 

[Crawley 'Gull]

cod shit. they are measurable responces within the brain and all subjective. your "beauty" in the sunset may be fear for another culture. the morals most societies conform to are pragmatic and practical responses to dealing with complex social groups and can be seen in primates and other mammals. truth is just that, facts about a matter and wisdom is insightful application of our intelligence. it is our inteligence that creates most emotion and subjective thoughts as we think about, around and through things, real or abstract. where or how intelligence is created, now thats the really interesting question.

Really? Since when have “primates and other mammals” been able to appreciate truth, wisdom and beauty, the loathing of evil etc…Where does human compassion for humans of other races, creeds, nationalities come from, where does our idea of selfless love come from…surely this goes completely against the idea of’ survival of the fittest’ etc. What animals have the ability to create and appreciate music, art etc. Surely you could maybeeven begin to consider the possibility that there’s more to life than what you see and that there’s a spiritual world and consequently we have a spirit and a soul that goes on living after we die.

 

[vic123]

cod shit. they are measurable responces within the brain and all subjective. your "beauty" in the sunset may be fear for another culture. the morals most societies conform to are pragmatic and practical responses to dealing with complex social groups and can be seen in primates and other mammals. truth is just that, facts about a matter and wisdom is insightful application of our intelligence. it is our inteligence that creates most emotion and subjective thoughts as we think about, around and through things, real or abstract. where or how intelligence is created, now thats the really interesting question.

I have to agree with you here, this guy assumes an awful lot. The "beauty" of the sunset is a perfect example. To you it might be beautiful but to me it could look ugly. As for morals, mercy, altruism and so on...I believe that there is a reasonable Darwinian explanation for these things where their application in our daily lives has aided our survival.

 

[vic123]

Something happens without a cause and that's not a miracle.

Please explain.

As far as I know, nobody has committed themselves to the view that "nothing" caused the creation of the universe. Christians say that God was the cause while the rest of us claim not to know the cause. Of course, not knowing what caused the big bang is not equal to saying that it was caused by nothing or that it "just happened." I know it APPEARS to have come from nothing but that's different.

Maybe it was caused by a black hole in another universe or perhaps we are the aftermath of a collision between two universes.

Who knows? I dunno!

As for miracles...if this website allows me to post this reply without having to log in FOR THE MILLIONTH f***ing TIME EVEN THOUGH I AM f***ing LOGGED IN ALREADY...NOW THAT WOULD BE A MIRACLE!!!!

*edit update* I had to sign in again. No miracle, no God, no chance!

 

[beorhthelm]

Really? Since when have “primates and other mammals” been able to appreciate truth, wisdom and beauty, the loathing of evil etc…

try to read what i wrote and not what you think. i said those things mentioned are measurable (as chemical and electrical responces) and are subjective, or qualified them in the case of truth or wisdom. i pointed out basic morals are common with animals (watch some wildlife programs, you dont even need to be zoologist). they are survival of the fittest, the best strategy in a large group is to protect other members of the group or subgroups, share food and cooperate in common cause. no where did i say primates appreciate "truth" or "beauty" (though i wouldnt be at all surprised if this has been demonstrated in higher apes). truth has no place in that list anyway. beauty is totally subjective and largely learnt from within your society and changes. evil is our definition of things that are just wrong (and provides the irrefutable counter-arguement to a good, knowing and omnipotent god)

i see plenty of beauty and wonder around me, and i know there is far more to life than what i can see and perceive. i just dont need to invoke the supernatural, i can appreciate it for itself on its own merit.

 

[Crawley 'Gull]

I have to agree with you here, this guy assumes an awful lot. The "beauty" of the sunset is a perfect example. To you it might be beautiful but to me it could look ugly. As for morals, mercy, altruism and so on...I believe that there is a reasonable Darwinian explanation for these things where their application in our daily lives has aided our survival.

So what else am I assuming exactly!? I didn't say everyone appreciates beauty the same way, I simply said we have the ability to appreciate beauty (in things or in people).

To say that ideas such as morality, mercy altruism must have a "Darwininan explanation" seems like the easy way out and for me just doesn't add up.

 

[Snarkey5]

we are the witness of everything, and we think we are our bodies but we are not, because we witness our bodies, from where do we see?

 

[Dandyman]

Something happens without a cause and that's not a miracle.

Please explain.

You need to pay more attention. The Universe was in an extremely hot and dense state and began expanding rapidly. After the initial expansion, the Universe cooled sufficiently to allow energy to be converted into various subatomic particles, including protons, neutrons, and electrons. Though simple atomic nuclei could have formed quickly, thousands of years were needed before the appearance of the first electrically neutral atoms. The first element produced was hydrogen, along with traces of helium and lithium. Giant clouds of these primordial elements later coalesced through gravity to form stars and galaxies, and the heavier elements were synthesized either within stars or during supernovae.

 

[jgmcdee]

Something happens without a cause and that's not a miracle.

Please explain.

There was a cause, pretty much by definition. Just because we aren't sure what it was right now doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. And there are lots of theories out there that explain how the beginning of the Universe could have happened, we just don't know which of them (if any) are correct at current.

 

[vic123]

So what else am I assuming exactly!? I didn't say everyone appreciates beauty the same way, I simply said we have the ability to appreciate beauty (in things or in people).

To say that ideas such as morality, mercy altruism must have a "Darwininan explanation" seems like the easy way out and for me just doesn't add up.

Darwinian explanations for altruism are wholly satisfactual. Yes, I take your point that Darwin's doctrine of, "survival of the fittest" is at odds with the definition of altruism. However, altruism in humans can still manifest itself within the parameters of traditional dog eat dog Darwinian evolution whilst serving a something for nothing purpose. A very good example of how this apparent paradox is possible is in the idea of charity. If I can afford to give without expecting something in return then I have clearly been doing well for myself. Also, the ego gets a boost! Poor, poor charity shops. Ne'er mind...here comes rich, important me to save the day!

 

[Crawley 'Gull]

Darwinian explanations for altruism are wholly satisfactual. Yes, I take your point that Darwin's doctrine of, "survival of the fittest" is at odds with the definition of altruism. However, altruism in humans can still manifest itself within the parameters of traditional dog eat dog Darwinian evolution whilst serving a something for nothing purpose. A very good example of how this apparent paradox is possible is in the idea of charity. If I can afford to give without expecting something in return then I have clearly been doing well for myself. Also, the ego gets a boost! Poor, poor charity shops. Ne'er mind...here comes rich, important me to save the day!

So what about those people who give up everything they have to serve the poor (Whether or not they were motivated to do this by faith in their "imaginary" God), what about those who give up high flying careers, material possessions, comfort etc to go and serve people they've never met or who they know will never be able to give anything back in return? Is this just a case of evolution gone wrong or will this help them survive in the future?

Help me out here as I'm genuinely trying to understand this way of thinking!!

 

[jgmcdee]

So what about those people who give up everything they have to serve the poor (Whether or not they were motivated to do this by faith in their "imaginary" God), what about those who give up high flying careers, material possessions, comfort etc to go and serve people they've never met or who they know will never be able to give anything back in return? Is this just a case of evolution gone wrong or will this help them survive in the future?

Help me out here as I'm genuinely trying to understand this way of thinking!!

Lots of options. Google for "darwinian/biological/cognitive basis of altruism" (select as per your predilection) and read away.

 

[vic123]

So what about those people who give up everything they have to serve the poor (Whether or not they were motivated to do this by faith in their "imaginary" God), what about those who give up high flying careers, material possessions, comfort etc to go and serve people they've never met or who they know will never be able to give anything back in return? Is this just a case of evolution gone wrong or will this help them survive in the future?

Help me out here as I'm genuinely trying to understand this way of thinking!!

If a person does this because they believe that God has commanded them to then the mystery has been solved as clearly, they assume the rewards will be waiting for them in Heaven.

If a commited Atheist decides to do this then, well...I guess it depends on the individual circumstances. I know of no super rich Atheist who has given it all up in exchange for a life of helping the poor. Indeed, as far as a strategy for eliminating poverty is concerned, exhausting your wealth in one fell swoop seems a pretty foolish first step! Far better to maintain your wealth and use it to create constructive solutions such as agricultural innovations and irrigation projects. Charity begins at home and I think that when we decide to be charitable we do so according to our own available resources and abilities.

 

[Gullys Cats]

My Nan is a Irish catholic from Connemara, my grandad is a athiest from Camberwell, when i was a kid (about 8) I was in the front room of my nan and grandads flat taking to my nan about what happens when you die, my nan starts talking to me about heaven, sounds good, then I walked into the kitchen and asked my grandad, what happens when you die, my grandad said "you go in the ground boy, that's it, there's nothing else, you go in the ground"


Iv been confused since that day!

 

[slartibartfast]

I dont believe in an afterlife - you die, you switch off.... however, if there was one, you'd probably find the ref had only allocated 4 minutes of it, not the obvious 6 that you think you deserve!