Alcoholism an illness or weakness

[public school boy]

Presumably that's dominant and recessive genes for you !!

I would imagine that in the not too distant future, there will be DNA tests to show the susceptibility to certains addictions (or maybe all addictions if it's down to one gene trait, e.g. an addictive personality).

Good to have these tests for personal info and to help you cope with life, but this data in the wrong hands could be used against you (e.g. life insurance etc.). But, of course, we can trust the government to safely keep this data.

The government being able to keep data safely,NOT THIS ONE! May be in future years science will be able to determine the make up of the human body and be able to totally iradicate any hereditary disease.Echos of the building of the Master race.

 

[getreal1]

well if you actually think that you are clueless IMO , though you are entitled to your opinion too as well

My view is I suppose built up through watching a close realtive and two close friends and their different manner of dealing with their drink and their lives. The relative being a drinker of many years standing, demonstrated great personal courage and sought help, and followed it through. Although now dead, his defeat of the addiction to alcohol was of immense pride to him and those who knew him. The others are both still personal friends of mine with wives and families. One will not commit to treatment although admits his problem, and the other is a year on from packing up drink. He has also shown a lot of courage. The first friend I have known all of my life - can't make decisions, can't face problems, and has frequent periods of unemployment - reasons for leaving work often said to be becaise of a bad attitude. This was always the case even before his drinking became heavy and problematic. So while people may think my view is harsh, the people in my life who have confronted alcholism have been courageous and the one who has failed has been gutless.

 

[getreal1]

As a ten year sober recovering alcoholic I offer the following.
a) There is a huge amount of ignorance on subject including on this board
b) It is hereditary. The last reading I did was a Swedish study that suggested alcoholic mothers had a 50% chance of having an alcoholic child and men a 25% chance. Anecdotely (sp) I know a family with 7 brothers and sisters, all affected and others similar. The odds on this happening randomly must be huge.
c) Virtually every country in the worlds medical and psycological associations (including the World Health Organisation) recognise it as an illness. The UK is a strange exception.
d) Again my reading may not be upto date but I know that there is a lot of research into dopamine receptors going on which would suggest that the brain chemistry of alcoholics is different to normal people. Illness, disease (mental or otherwise) or cruel twist of nature?
e) Alcoholics do not get better. A real alcoholic can never safely drink. True remission occurs in 0.07 cases or in other words never.
f) getreal 1 is invited to makes his comments to me directly in order that we may test who is gutless.

If you are continuing to win your personal battle then I congratulate you, but I stand by my view

 

[The Merry Prankster]

If you are continuing to win your personal battle then I congratulate you, but I stand by my view

But your view shows you to be an idiot. Do you think I was gutless all my life until the day I woke up and I was suddenly courageous? You may like to consider that this is a subject that although you may be able to witness its effects you cannot understand it without the misfortune of experiencing it. I doubt for example you would be quite so sure of your ground when discussing childbirth for instance.

 

[getreal1]

But your view shows you to be an idiot. Do you think I was gutless all my life until the day I woke up and I was suddenly courageous? You may like to consider that this is a subject that although you may be able to witness its effects you cannot understand it without the misfortune of experiencing it. I doubt for example you would be quite so sure of your ground when discussing childbirth for instance.

I have no idea what you may have been like prior to alcoholism. You don't know about the extent of your courage though until you need it - an episode like you've had in your own life is the time when you find out. As for childbirth, well, no I haven't given birth but I do have three children as it happens and have witnessed it. Not every midwife has had a child but is she not as effective as someone who has?

 

[The Merry Prankster]

I have no idea what you may have been like prior to alcoholism. You don't know about the extent of your courage though until you need it - an episode like you've had in your own life is the time when you find out. As for childbirth, well, no I haven't given birth but I do have three children as it happens and have witnessed it. Not every midwife has had a child but is she not as effective as someone who has?

Their is no prior to alcoholism, just a period were you appear to get away with it.
You completely miss the point. You cannot comment on the experience of childbirth without actually experiencing it. It is beyond your understanding (and mine). Facilitating a birth can be done by anyone (trained) regardless of whether or not they have experienced it.

 

[public school boy]

So while people may think my view is harsh, the people in my life who have confronted alcholism have been courageous and the one who has failed has been gutless.

I think the Gutless to describe your friend is harsh,but the fact that he realises that the drink is a problem is a start.He is obviously deeply troubled and I think that he needs encouragement from his friends and family and not made to feel that he is being persecuted. like all addictions alcoholism is extremely difficult to break free from and needs real courage and HONESTY to fight.I don't think it is possible for a non alcoholic to understand what makes an alcoholic behave in the way he/she does.
Yes the booze can be used as an escape from problems but it does not solve them.It sounds as if you have been hurt by your friend and are some what frustrated by the fact that he is not seeking help.This I can understand because I am going through this with a member of my family.

 

[public school boy]

But your view shows you to be an idiot. Do you think I was gutless all my life until the day I woke up and I was courageous?
I don't think that it is wright to say that getreal1 is an idiot and i think that you describe him as such through anger which I can understand.I don't think Non alcoholics can understand the pain and anguish the alcoholic goes through and I don't think an alcoholic can truely describe it either.

 

[Acker79]

The problem with saying it is genetically hereditary is not entirely accurate. Genes re not as definitive as simply "you have a gene for alcoholism" or "you have a gene for obesity".

If you have this gene and never drink, you won't become an alcoholic, if you have the latter gene and eat healthily and have an active lifestyle, you won't become obese.

While not an expert on alcoholism I'm pretty sure that not every alcoholic is one for the same reason. For some it is an escape from a world they can't handle and the responsibilities they feel unable to face, for some it is being a good time guy/gal gone too far, some times it is to dull the pain of a horrid past.

So in some cases I would be inclined to agree with getreal1. In some cases.

But going back to the idea of hereditary. These studies are not always accurate, because it doesn't separate the upbringing from the genes. A child of a smoker is more likely to pick up smoking than the child of a non-smoker, the child of a teen mother is more likely to be a teen mother and so on. It isn't necessarily down to genes it could simply be down to the life they grew up knowing (the ol' "nature v nurture" debate).

Children of alcoholics are more likely to be alcoholics. It doesn't mean it is genetic.

As for weakness v illness I really don't know. There are times I think referring to it as an illness absolves people of responsibility, not just the drinker that doesn't want to admit to it, but also the parents who didn't raise a more in control person, a society that let a person slip so far etc.

On the other hand, I think "weakness" is a far too harsh term. I think there are things that require greater willpower than any regular person has, and does only having regular level will power mean you're weak?

 

[Jimbo26]

You must forgive your enemies but always remember their name......mmmmmmmm....Stella

 

[getreal1]

I think the Gutless to describe your friend is harsh,but the fact that he realises that the drink is a problem is a start.He is obviously deeply troubled and I think that he needs encouragement from his friends and family and not made to feel that he is being persecuted. like all addictions alcoholism is extremely difficult to break free from and needs real courage and HONESTY to fight.I don't think it is possible for a non alcoholic to understand what makes an alcoholic behave in the way he/she does.
Yes the booze can be used as an escape from problems but it does not solve them.It sounds as if you have been hurt by your friend and are some what frustrated by the fact that he is not seeking help.This I can understand because I am going through this with a member of my family.

I hope that something positive isn't too far away PSB. Best wishes.

 

[public school boy]

The problem with saying it is genetically hereditary is not entirely accurate. Genes re not as definitive as simply "you have a gene for alcoholism" or "you have a gene for obesity".

have the latter gene and eat healthily and have an active lifestyle, you won't become obese.

While not an expert on alcoholism I'm pretty sure that not every alcoholic is one for the same reason. For some it is an escape from a world they can't handle and the responsibilities they feel unable to face, for some it is being a good time guy/gal gone too far, some times it is to dull the pain of a horrid past.

So in some cases I would be inclined to agree with getreal1. In some cases.

But going back to the idea of hereditary. These studies are not always accurate, because it doesn't separate the upbringing from the genes. A child of a smoker is more likely to pick up smoking than the child of a non-smoker, the child of a teen mother is more likely to be a teen mother and so on. It isn't necessarily down to genes it could simply be down to the life they grew up knowing (the ol' "nature v nurture" debate).

Children of alcoholics are more likely to be alcoholics. It doesn't mean it is genetic.

As for weakness v illness I really don't know. There are times I think referring to it as an illness absolves people of responsibility, not just the drinker that doesn't want to admit to it, but also the parents who didn't raise a more in control person, a society that let a person slip so far etc.

On the other hand, I think "weakness" is a far too harsh term. I think there are things that require greater willpower than any regular person has, and does only having regular level will power mean you're weak?

Very interesting. I don't think it always comes down to the way a child is raised and would strongly diagree with as you phraise it parents who didn't raise a more in control person.I also think that alot of the problems an alcoholic has are caused by the drinking,but I agree that people do use drink as an escape.

 

[Acker79]

Very interesting. I don't think it always comes down to the way a child is raised and would strongly diagree with as you phraise it parents who didn't raise a more in control person.I also think that alot of the problems an alcoholic has are caused by the drinking,but I agree that people do use drink as an escape.

I don't mean parents don't raise a more "in control" person, I mean they feel some sort of guilt, like they failed as a parent and to ease their guilt they put the blame on "illness". Maybe the parents in some cases can do a better job bringing up a child with confidence and drive that would help them avoid becoming controlled by their addictions, but I wanted to make it clear I wasn't saying the 'illness' line is only used by the alcoholics themselves.

Nor do I mean it's always how they raised. I think people here are making statements as if there's only one way someone becomes an alcoholic, or whatever. I listed several, but I don't think I could ever cover them all.

 

[The Merry Prankster]

I don't think that it is wright to say that getreal1 is an idiot and i think that you describe him as such through anger which I can understand.I don't think Non alcoholics can understand the pain and anguish the alcoholic goes through and I don't think an alcoholic can truely describe it either.

I don't. I call him an idiot because he speaks of what he cannot know

 

[The Merry Prankster]

I think there are things that require greater willpower than any regular person has, and does only having regular level will power mean you're weak?

Will power is of no use at all against alcoholism in my experience.

 

[Insel affe]

I tell ya this feckin team has just drivin me to a nice jack n ice..........bollox team

 

[getreal1]

I don't. I call him an idiot because he speaks of what he cannot know

No Merry - NSC facilitates a range of opinions, often made by posters who have not personally experienced the circumstances in regard to the subject head. If you wanted to start a thread exclusive only to those who have been alcoholic themselves, fine, but otherwise expect people to comment. I presume you started to drink because you couldn't face the chip on your shoulder, but have ended up with a bigger one which shows itself when the subject of the demon drink arises.

 

[Acker79]

Will power is of no use at all against alcoholism in my experience.

will power... self control.

Can you explain to me what situation physically forces you to drink?
What situation makes you drink that can't be changed with the will power to say no, the self control to leave the glass/bottle/whatever on the table.

I know that for most alcoholics there is a huge huge difference between saying "just leave the glass on the table" and actually being able to just leave it there, but that is where my comment about will power/self control comes in.

What I mean is that sometimes even superhuman will power is not enough to control yourself to leave the glass there.

 

[public school boy]

will power... self control.

Can you explain to me what situation physically forces you to drink?
What situation makes you drink that can't be changed with the will power to say no, the self control to leave the glass/bottle/whatever on the table.

I know that for most alcoholics there is a huge huge difference between saying "just leave the glass on the table" and actually being able to just leave it there, but that is where my comment about will power/self control comes in.

What I mean is that sometimes even superhuman will power is not enough to control yourself to leave the glass there.

A desire to want to stop drinking.Will power does play it's part as well but I would suggest that it is not enough on it's own.If any body wants to do something badly enough they should go to any length to achieve it and in the case of alcohol the majority of those who give up and stay dry attend Alcoholics Anonymous

 

[The Large One]

At one point do would you become an alcoholic ?

A mate once reckoned it was when you woke up in the morning and wanted to drink, never really known the answer.

I'm not an alcoholic, but I did live with an alcoholics counsellor for two years (she had been the victim of spousal abuse at the hands of an alcoholic) and got some insight into this.

There many methods for evaluating an alcoholic, but there isn't really considered a quantifiable point at which someone obtains that label.

One person can drink excessively and not be labelled an alcoholic, and the next person drink very little, yet still be one. There is a school of thought, and one which to me makes a certain amount of sense, which dictates that the amount you drink is not necessarily the first test for your state of alcoholism, more that it's your reliance you place upon it and inherent desire for it, and the extent to which that takes over your state of being and your cognitive processes.

It's not a hard and fast rule, of course.