Neville's Breakfast
Well-known member
I have a GCE in History if anyone is wondering.
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[Albion] Aaron Connolly - joining Hull permanently
- Thread starter Cotton Socks
- Start date
You must have missed most of his previous posts.
Jolly Red Giant
Well-known member
- Jul 11, 2015
- 2,615
Don't have a massive chip on any shoulder - way too old to waste my time having a chip held anywhere - time is far too precious.
Analysing and understanding the nature of capitalism and its impact on working class people and the mass of the poor (my main area of research) - that is an important endeavour and I have already contributed significantly to the historical understanding of this field through my research. So far this year my published works include two chapters in published academic books and two articles in academic journals - and over the next four months I have a further two chapters being published in upcoming books (one of which the publishers and editors have stated is the most important chapter in the book and one of the most important - if not the most important - on the revolutionary period in Ireland than has been published in any edited work over the past five years) - and my own book that is due for publication in November (if I get it finished in time).
The reality is that sport cannot be divorced from politics - indeed all sport is rooted in class politics. And football is the most important working class sport globally and the sport that is more directly affected by politics (including geo-politics) and by economic exploitation than any other. Every comment I have posted on this thread has its foundation in politics and the economic basis of society - it cannot be any other way. And most of the other comments are as well, whether the posters realise it or not.
Jolly Red Giant
Well-known member
- Jul 11, 2015
- 2,615
Predominantly 19th and 20th century labour history - but no field of history can be isolated from everything else that was / is happening around it.
One of the things on my to-do list is a history of the class origins of soccer in Ireland and how it developed under a new Irish state that attempted to oppress non-Irish working class sporting activity.
I appreciate that, but I'd suggest throwing in "I have a PhD" when your specialist area is of only vague relation to the colonial history of Suriname or Silesia is slightly disingenuous.
Notwithstanding that I'm clearly less interested in class issues than you, that does sound interesting.
Jolly Red Giant
Well-known member
- Jul 11, 2015
- 2,615
Well - you must remember that Ireland has 700 years of colonial history - indeed, depending on your political perspective, it still suffers from imperial domination (something that I agree with - and I am not an Irish republican).
So you cannot research and understand and write about class relationships in an labour context in Ireland and/or Britain (because they are significantly intertwined) without having an understanding of the nature of imperialism, colonialism and its impact on subjugated peoples in a wider economic, political and social sense, including on a global basis.
I really don't need to be reminded of that.
For what it's worth, I did study history at university.
Jolly Red Giant
Well-known member
- Jul 11, 2015
- 2,615
Cool - love it when I see people taking an active interest in studying history.
hart's shirt
Well-known member
And he's scored.
"Aaron Connolly (Hull City) left footed shot from the centre of the box to the centre of the goal."
"Aaron Connolly (Hull City) left footed shot from the centre of the box to the centre of the goal."
Coldeanseagull
Opinionated
Good, hope he keeps doing it
- Apr 5, 2014
- 25,900
Well - let's see - and one of my long and detailed posts
Jack Grealish - from an Irish family born in Birmingham - played gaelic football as a kid in Birmingham and spent a lot of time in Ireland growing up. In 2011 he was selected for the English U-15 squad and he rejected the invitation, joining the Irish U-15s instead. Was selected for the England U-17s three times and turned them down each time. From 2014 Grealish was on the fringes of the Irish senior squad - and he said nothing would make his Dad prouder than playing for the Irish team.
Ireland U-17s - 7 apps
Ireland U-18s - 6 apps
Ireland U-21s - 6 apps
Why did Grealish switch - agents and money - English internationals attract far bigger transfer fees, far bigger contracts and far bigger agent's fees than Irish players. Everything doubled overnight in financial terms. On top of that - his dad was a plasterer until Grealish switched to England - now he has a lucrative job with a sports agency.
Jude Bellingham - His grandparents are Irish - and is another player born in the West Midlands with Irish heritage. His Dad repeatedly talked about how proud he was of his half-Irish, mixed race son.
Was he ever going to play for Ireland - no - and no one in Ireland expected he would. Why does he have an Irish passport - to circumvent La Liga rules about foreign players.
Harry Kane - family are native Irish speakers from the Connemara Gaelteacht . He played Irish sports and music as a kid - and spent the summer months in Connemara for most of his childhood. Unusually, Kane's Irish heritage was not found by the FAI. In 2014 his agent contacted the FAI and told them that Kane was interested in switching international allegiance from England to Ireland. Then Spurs put pressure on the player not to do so - why? - potential loss of transfer fees if they ever sold him. The pressure counted - Kane stayed with England and Spurs are probably going to get close to £100m for him if they sell him in the next couple of weeks.
Harry Maguire - his grandparents are Irish and he was actually qualified to play for both the Republic and the North. Never appeared on the Irish radar - but apparently does now have an Irish passport.
Declan Rice - now here is the prime example - born in London - his grandparents were from Cork.
Ireland U-16s - 3 apps
Ireland U-17s - 6 apps
Ireland U-19s - 6 apps
Ireland U-21s - 5 apps
Ireland Senior team - 3 caps
Throughout his underage time with Ireland the English FA showed zero interest in Rice. However, in 2018 Rice was offered a new contract by West Ham - and prompted by his agent and the club - knowing the fact that declaring for England would at least double his value to the club (and his agent knowing it would double his fees and commission) the pressure came on Rice to switch to England. It is worth noting that Stuart Pearce, Rice's coach at West Ham at the time, was opposed to allowing Rice to switch to England. Roy Keane possibly had a small role in pushing Rice into the England camp - he can be a bit brash in his comments at times. This is Rice talking after playing for the Irish team against the USA -
By the way - the only one that is an issue for me is Rice - kids don't know what they want to do - but once you play at full international level that should lock in international representation. But it is clear that in the case of both Rice and Grealish - money - which is now the dominant factor in football - was the key reason for both players switching to England. Tom Cannon is now being poached - and the same arguments are being used - except Cannon is unlikely to be at the same standard as the players mentioned above. Indeed it would be a shame for Cannon to switch and end up with a handful of England caps and miss on an opportunity of potentially spending 15 years playing up front with Evan Ferguson with Ireland.
Case in point about money - last year Gavin Bazunu joined Southampton from Man City for £10m - this season James Trafford joined Burnley from Man City for £19m. The difference - Bazunu is an Irish international with 16 caps who played 32 PL games last season - Trafford is an English U-21 international who played in L1 last season. Bazunu is a way better goalkeeper than Trafford - and will be a way better goalkeeper than Trafford. But Trafford is English so more money comes into play.
The one player that switched that I do have a major problem with is Michael Keane of Everton - he has publicly stated in recent times that he only played for the Irish underage teams because he couldn't get into the English teams because the coaches thought he was too small - and that he used the Irish teams to gain experience and help him bulk up. He deprived an Irish player of a place in those squads that could have been the difference to that player of making or breaking a chance at a pro career. Keane's father is Irish - and if he was my son I would have kicked his rear end to high heaven for behaving in that fashion - not for switching - but for using the Irish set-up in the way he did (but hell - different families have different dynamics and outlooks).
There are many other English players that qualified to play for Ireland - of the current batch of English internationals - Kalvin Phillips, Conor Gallagher, James Maddison, Callum Wilson, Conor Coady all could have played for Ireland. Liam Delap's father was an Irish international. Former English internationals who qualified for Ireland - Paul Scholes, Paul Gascoigne, Jimmy Greaves, Martin Keown, Wayne Rooney. One player that should have played for Ireland and didn't despite never playing for England - Steve Bruce. His mother was born in Ireland and Jack Charlton wanted to call him into the Irish squad - Alex Ferguson warned Bruce against declaring for Ireland because at the time he would have been classed as a foreign player under UEFA rules. His son Alex Bruce later played for Ireland (and later the North because he never appeared in a competitive international for the Republic).
While Ireland has and continues to take advantage of a large diaspora - former imperial powers also take advantage of their position. England have used players in the past who have had zero connection with the country. John Barnes was born in Jamaica - his father captained the Jamaican national team - he had no connection with England and moved to London when he was 12 after his father was appointed to the Jamaican High Commission in London. Raheem Sterling is also Jamaican - born there and his mother competed for Jamaica at athletics - like Barnes, had has zero connection with England until he moved there at the age of five. Tony Dorigo was born in Australia to an Italian father and Australian mother - no connection with England until he joined Villa - he was called up to the Australian squad but Villa manager Tony Barton refused to let him travel to Australia. Marc Guehi was born in the Cote d'Ivoire - and again - no connection until he moved to England. Fikayo Tomori was born in Canada of Nigerian parents - before moving to England, and he played for Canada at underage level. Eberechi Eze is of Nigerian decent and trained with the Nigerian team. Saka is also of Nigerian decent, Marcus Rashford is of West Indian decent (Jamaican and Kittitian), Reece James is of Grenadian and Dominican decent, Ivan Toney is of Jamaican decent, Tammy Abraham is of Nigerian decent. And one that got away - Erling Haaland was born in England.
England are far from the worst of the former Empires - The French team that won the 1998 world cup had the following Vieira (born Senegal), Dessailly (Ghana), Thuram (Guadeloupe), Karembeau (New Caledonia), Trezeguet (born in France to Argentinian parents and grew up in Argentina - Spanish is his first language - he started his playing career in Argentina before being signed by Monaco). Along with that - Zidane is of Algerian Kabyle decent, Henry of Guadeloupean decent as is Diomede, Djorkaeff and Boghossian are of Armenian decent and Lizarazu identified as Basque. Only 3 of the French world cup winning squad from 2018 were not of immigrant extraction
Some famous players who played for countries they had zero connection with -
Alfredo Di Stefano - Spain - born in and played for Argentina (and Colombia)
Mauro Camoranesi - Italy - born in Argentina (qualified for Italy because his great-grandfather emigrated to Argentina 150 years ago)
Patrice Evra - France - born in Senegal
Diego Costa - Spain - born in and played for Brazil
Lukas Podolski - Germany - born in Poland (and actually wanted to play for Poland but the then coach refused to select him because he had played a few games at underage for Germany).
Miroslav Klose - Germany - born in Poland
Eusebio - Portugal - born in Mozambique
Aron Winter - Holland - born in Suriname
Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink - Holland - born in Suriname
Edgar Davids - Holland - born in Suriname
Clarence Seedorf - Holland - born in Suriname
As much as it is an interesting read, I'm struggling with the the complex idea of nationality.
If a player is born in another country but moves when he is young, it is only natural he would have more affiliation with the one he knows best. There would be a choice though, both of which have justification.
As for Marcus Rashford and others like him. I'm not sure why they are discussed. They were born here and grew up here. Doesn't merit a thought.
It shouldn't be a topic for debate. The England cricket team had this problem when players who had arrived in England when they were young were selected. The debate should be closed down because having only just left behind the decades where players were not considered English for the reasons you discuss, the underlying nakedness being racism, we don't want that to rear its head again. Nobody counts the amount of black players we have anymore (unless they are from Britain First or something).
Knowing you, such directions of discussion are the last thing you would want to see.
Nobby Cybergoat
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- Jul 19, 2021
- 8,622
Well done Aaron. Keep up the good work.
Jolly Red Giant
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- Jul 11, 2015
- 2,615
Yea - a goal today - hopefully it is the start of good things for him. He probably couldn't be in a better spot at the moment.
Nobby Cybergoat
Well-known member
- Jul 19, 2021
- 8,622
With some players it just needs someone who knows them and how to manage them. It's early days but i'm confident that Liam knows how to make the lad feel wanted and get the best out of him. Aaron has many years to make the most of his obvious talent
Jolly Red Giant
Well-known member
- Jul 11, 2015
- 2,615
The reality with any diaspora is that they tend to become more identified with their country of origin when they emigrate. The Irish diaspora in England are a case in point - they tend to identify more with Irish nationalism, (drinking in Irish pubs), attending Irish heritage and cultural centres, engage more with Irish music and dance etc than they would have if they were living in Ireland. It tends to be a necessary process in order for emigrants to have a sense of identity.
Many Irish internationals who were born in Britain and spoke in thick cockney or scouse accents have spoken about how Irishness was a crucial part of their upbringing. When people criticised the Jack Charlton team because of the number of English born players - but the reality is that Charlton's team was actually more Irish in outlook than many other Irish international teams - precisely because they were being accused of being mercenaries.
Even the one player from that era who technically didn't qualify to play for Ireland, Tony Cascarino, has gone ballistic when it was suggested he wasn't Irish. Cascarino was born in England with Scottish and Italian ancestry - he qualified for Ireland through his grandfather from Mayo. When Cascarino submitted his paperwork for a passport it was rejected, Cascarino had already been capped three times at that stage, thought it was a technical issue and kept playing using his British passport for travel. It later turned out that Cascarino's mother had been adopted and so was not a blood relative of her Irish father. The FAI even discussed stripping Cascarino of his Irish caps. The law in Ireland was changed in 1991 allowing adopted kids to nationality rights (should always have been the case) and but Cascarino's mother never bothered applying for a passport so Cascarino cannot apply for one. However, when the issue of Grealish cropped up several years ago, Shay Given made a comment about Cascarino being a fake and Cascarino went for him - saying if he ever met him in person again he would do more than utter harsh words.
People can live their entire lives in one country, but have ancestry in another country and can always feel and believe that they are of that nation's people. Nationality rules change all the time - the Tories discriminate against the Windrush generation yet sell passports to Russian oligarchs. FIFA and UEFA should have clear rules (they keep changing them to suit individual associations) - and in my view the line should be drawn at appearing in a full international. But this will never be resolved as long as money dominates football.
Lastly - you missed the point about Rashford - it had nothing to do with racism - it had to do with the fact that former imperial nations have exploited their former colonies for sporting purposes as well as economic and political purposes - and some (like the French) do it far more than most others. Yet few question the impact of imperialism - while at the same time criticising the colonies for embracing their diaspora. Rashford, who has been the victim of racism, has been outspoken in his defence of his black and Caribbean heritage.
It is worth noting that the Irish team will face similar problems in the coming years - a large number of the young players coming through are of African decent - most, if not all, have already been subjected to racism in Ireland and told they weren't Irish (because they are black and their parents weren't born in Ireland). Yet these players have faced down the racists - and demonstrated a determination to play for Ireland. But not for one moment would I, or any genuine Irish fan, criticise any of these players if they chose to opt to play for the country from where their family originated.
Insel affe
HellBilly
Proving he has the talent at last, so pleased for him.