1 million youth unemployed

[User removed 4]

and you are trying to compare apples with oranges. we are discussing youth unemployment. im fully aware that the economics changes as one gets older and has a family. that produces a different complexion. What im arguing is that low pay immigrant workers dont necessaryily price local Brits out of work, though accept circumstances of the individual might change the perspective of this.

if we go back to your original point however "if there werent immigrants here willing to do these jobs for a pittance , they'd be forced to make the jobs more attractive financially to get British people to do them" i can offer you an economic argument too. if the employer had to pay much more for the work, the job might not even exist as it would be cheaper elsewhere. if the cost to employ the workers is greater than the price of the produce, business goes bust. or they rise their prices, workers need higher wages... off we go on the inflationary cycle. if you can find the sweet spot where the farmer can slim their margin to and be happy, while also meaningfully increase the wages of the workers, then i suspect you have a career as an economist ahead of you.

If a firm cant produce something or provide a service by paying more than £6.50 an hour they dont deserve to be in business.Our whole economy needs root and branch reform , start making quality well engineered goods that we can sell to the world, and train our kids/workforce to do it , instead of producing tat that can be made using people on £6.50 an hour , or even cheaper in Korea.

 

[Hatterlovesbrighton]

And if my granny had bollocks she'd be my grandad, there are so many if's and but's, we only have to look at how our energy is so fkin expensive because we have to rely on foreign owned firms and supplies.

Not saying energy isn't expensive but we're actually pretty cheap compared to the rest of Europe. See page 4 of this http://www.vaasaett.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/HEPI-Press-Release-November-20101.pdf

 

[beorhthelm]

If a firm cant produce something or provide a service by paying more than £6.50 an hour they dont deserve to be in business.

i see, that about wraps it up for economics then.

 

[User removed 4]

i see, that about wraps it up for economics then.

Very selective quoting there, still doesnt disguise that you're talking bollocks.

 

[BigGully]

Can a worker from the EU come here and sign on and would they be entitled to the same rate of benefit as their UK counterparts ??

 

[Barrel of Fun]

Can a worker from the EU come here and sign on and would they be entitled to the same rate of benefit as their UK counterparts ??

I have been helping out an Iranian homeless man. Taking him soup, making him coffee and so on. He receives JSA and has finally managed to get a room through a housing trust after 6 months of rough sleeping.

He was working, paying taxes and so on, but he was sacked from his job at Jamie Oliver's restaurant and lost his flat.

 

[BigGully]

I have been helping out an Iranian homeless man. Taking him soup, making him coffee and so on. He receives JSA and has finally managed to get a room through a housing trust after 6 months of rough sleeping.

He was working, paying taxes and so on, but he was sacked from his job at Jamie Oliver's restaurant and lost his flat.

Oh ok .... so they have full entitlement, even if they are Iranian

 

[beorhthelm]

Very selective quoting there, still doesnt disguise that you're talking bollocks.

not selective, making a point. so you want root and branch reform of the economy, that would be nice. however back in reality that isnt about to happen over night if at all with a population of 65m who expect certain things. having no service worth less than 6.50 means you simply write off doing certain low level jobs, where there simply isnt an economical case for increasing the pay, when you can import the good (as you recognise) or simply go without. often jobs are only done by people at the moment because its cheper than developing and supporting a machine to do it, in your well engineered world we could make that machine but then put people out of work (hey, didnt that happen before?). do we have too few jobs or too many people? back to social problems.

anyway, this is all a diversion from youth unemployment in a background of increasing immigrants. nothing solved so far.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Why doesn't Britain make things any more? | Business | The Guardian

This is a very interesting article.

"There was a deep satisfaction about making things," he said. "A deep satisfaction among all of those that had supplied the services, whether it was the local bankers with credit; whether it was the local design firms. When a ship was launched at [Newcastle firm] Swan Hunter all the kids at the local school went to see the thing our fathers had put together and when we looked down from the cross-wired fence, tried to find Uncle Mick, Uncle Jim or your dad, this notion of an integrated, productive community was quite astonishing."

This is what we need again. There is a lot of pride in making things.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

Undoubtedly a complex issue but there has been many factors over the years that has caused this problem.

When I started out in the big world in the early eighties, I had my mind set on becoming an engineer. After many letters and interviews I was offered no less than 5 apprenticeships. I settled on becoming an aircraft engineer with B-Cal. Many companies existed back then on the industrial estates who had a healthy intake of apprentices each year but slowly this dropped down to a trickle. Many factors caused the demise but it would be easy to blame the government of the day for this. The way engineering progressed was a major factor. Machinery was entering the fully automotive stage requiring less people to operate and less skills. Production moved to one area as opposed to being spread around due to rising logistical costs. And finally tax breaks for companies who took on apprentices were slowly eroded.

My job needed less engineers due to the advances in technology effectively leading to less breakdowns and less planned maintenance.

Many of our colleges offering engineering places for apprentices (paid for by the companies) suddenly found that their courses were emptying.

Labour's answer was to encourage all school leavers to stay in education. This only deferred the problem. They were not creating jobs for the young but were giving the youth inflated expectations of what to expect in the job market.

The main problem that exists with anyone who continues in education is that no one ends up qualified to do anything. Without the practical experience of working in the workplace you are not able to be of much use. This is the same in virtually any field. Labour gave the impression that getting a degree will get you a job. Years ago maybe but with so many these days achieving degrees the markets are flooded with graduates. Once it was a tool into management, showing your ability to learn, but nowadays it means nearly bugger all. Not everyone can have the best jobs!

With the immigrants taking the lower paid jobs is another issue. Many businesses claimed at the time and also the Tories, that the minimum wage will cause unemployment. This, during the "good" times, did not seem apparent but once the economy slows down and businesses are looking to cut expenditure it comes to the fore. During previous recessions businesses have survived by all the staff accepting a cut in wages thus saving their jobs. This option is not there in some instances these days. Also the fact some will work for less (immigrants) is more worrying. The farmers can pay less because they can offer accommodation as part of the wage and are therefore not breaking the rules. Many of our youngsters are not prepared to live this way.

I'll give another instance were the minimum wage can cost jobs. I owned a number of pubs. Like nearly all the pubs I knew I paid session pay. It would be for example £15 per session 6 till close. I never had a problem getting staff. With the introduction of the minimum wage suddenly my costs rose by 30%. Mainly due to not the session but the extra time after closing, clearing up. Staff starting seeing it as a license to get more money. The more they could "extend" their hours the more money they "earn". I know of similar businesses that suffered.

Some might say they deserved this, deserved that, but someone ends up paying whether it be the business, passed onto the customer or ultimately the staff losing their jobs.

Going back to the youth I would do a number of things. Firstly I'd look at the country as a whole and find out what skills are need. I would then go back to the colleges and throw out any meaningless courses. I would intensify the worthwhile courses. Tailor them for the job market. This does not happen at the moment. It all well and good allowing a free choice for study but in times like this it has to directed into positive areas. I would give huge incentives to any company offering even one apprentice, training etc.

In regard to minimum wages I would offer certain businesses to top up the wages to the minimum wage, such as the fruit pickers etc. This would allow, what is a low profit business, to thrive and the staff to earn a proper wage. Perhaps then some of the kids might do the work. Obviously there would have to be stringent rules regarding this top up.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

If a firm cant produce something or provide a service by paying more than £6.50 an hour they dont deserve to be in business.Our whole economy needs root and branch reform , start making quality well engineered goods that we can sell to the world, and train our kids/workforce to do it , instead of producing tat that can be made using people on £6.50 an hour , or even cheaper in Korea.

This is true. I also thought this when someone was blathering on about their mate in that minimum wage thread. The post related to his chum's hairdressers and the claim that they could not afford to pay a hair washer and sweeper more than £5 an hour and had to close on certain days as a result. FFS, if his business cannot fully function due to this then he/they should not be in business.

 

[beorhthelm]

This is true. I also thought this when someone was blathering on about their mate in that minimum wage thread. The post related to his chum's hairdressers and the claim that they could not afford to pay a hair washer and sweeper more than £5 an hour and had to close on certain days as a result. FFS, if his business cannot fully function due to this then he/they should not be in business.

i may have made that point, it was on tellybox the other day, and was one of many examples. People are cutting back, so not going to the hairdressers so often, so takings are down and cuts are necessary to breakeven/profit. the business doesnt *need* the girl to rinse and sweep, as the stylist doesnt have so many clients and can do the jobs themself. so the auxiliary job goes. this has a big impact on youth employment, as they tend to be the ones doing such jobs.

 

[Football]

Lol are you sure? It's EU policy to allow free access to any member state including the right to work. Did Labour make the EU ruling?

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

I have been helping out an Iranian homeless man. Taking him soup, making him coffee and so on. He receives JSA and has finally managed to get a room through a housing trust after 6 months of rough sleeping.

He was working, paying taxes and so on, but he was sacked from his job at Jamie Oliver's restaurant and lost his flat.

oh well shit happens, Jamie oliver must be having a hard time of it then

 

[User removed 4]

Why doesn't Britain make things any more? | Business | The Guardian

This is a very interesting article.

"There was a deep satisfaction about making things," he said. "A deep satisfaction among all of those that had supplied the services, whether it was the local bankers with credit; whether it was the local design firms. When a ship was launched at [Newcastle firm] Swan Hunter all the kids at the local school went to see the thing our fathers had put together and when we looked down from the cross-wired fence, tried to find Uncle Mick, Uncle Jim or your dad, this notion of an integrated, productive community was quite astonishing."
indeed there is
This is what we need again. There is a lot of pride in making things.

Indeed there is but we cant seem to compete with the likes of Korea , or aren't clever enough to manipulate tender offers like the french ( see the bombardier debacle).

 

[portlock seagull]

In very general terms, if we don't make anything as a country, we have nothing to serve or sell. Time has caught up with us and they'll be far more pain to come for sure and it'll last for even longer. I really think we're on the dawn of a new age...and it's not a happy one I'm afraid, the internet has changed everything far more than people actually realise. Our entire population needs a mind-set change. Those in power are incompetent, the voting choice is akin to picking Hitler or Stalin. But we're not exactly trying to change things from a grass roots level are we? People don't vote. Moreover, people don't want to become the people to vote FOR! We just accept and grumble. Apathy rules. We're all victims of circumstance. I'm a big believer in personal empowerment (though often don't swallow my own medicine!). A lot's got to change, but it'll only happen very slowly. Humanity's usual response is to have a massive war, if the pressures on resources and economies is too great. Sad but true, it's the longest period of general peace this world's ever known; history is against us! Quite frightening if you pause for a minute and really think about it.

Still, all will be right in the world when we beat SCC on Saturday!

 

[portlock seagull]

Why doesn't Britain make things any more? | Business | The Guardian

This is a very interesting article.

"There was a deep satisfaction about making things," he said. "A deep satisfaction among all of those that had supplied the services, whether it was the local bankers with credit; whether it was the local design firms. When a ship was launched at [Newcastle firm] Swan Hunter all the kids at the local school went to see the thing our fathers had put together and when we looked down from the cross-wired fence, tried to find Uncle Mick, Uncle Jim or your dad, this notion of an integrated, productive community was quite astonishing."

This is what we need again. There is a lot of pride in making things.

This is so true. I feel thrilled when I put a curtain rail up!!! (not the best at DIY!)

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

This is true. I also thought this when someone was blathering on about their mate in that minimum wage thread. The post related to his chum's hairdressers and the claim that they could not afford to pay a hair washer and sweeper more than £5 an hour and had to close on certain days as a result. FFS, if his business cannot fully function due to this then he/they should not be in business.

Lets put that in the national context. View Britain as a business. That's all the civil service sacked as we can't afford them!

Your post would suggest you have never run a business. There are many factors that make a business solvent or not. One being staffing costs. If you went into a pub, you would want to served quickly, if there was only one member of staff on and they were busy how long would you wait? . So the owner sees this and employs another member of staff, doubling his staffing costs. The pub patrons now get served quicker but does he make any more money? Its a fine balance between supply and demand. The pub up the road is a countrywide business, gets its products for a fraction of the price. It gets cheap loans to buy the property against your extortionate rent. Its able to offer staff incentives you can not. You go bust, your staff lose their jobs, you, your home and the locals another pub bites the dust.

Many farming activities in this country are not profitable should all these go bust? Are you happy getting your pork from the rest of Europe? Where they do not have to comply to the same rules (animal welfare) or would you be happy to pay a higher price for the product. If so PM me as I'm a piggy farmer!!

Seriously though its easy to say a business should be able to do this, do that but in the position this country is in businesses can not raise their prices to match their costs, people will not wear it. Raising wages is inflationary and is not the answer as it causes a merry-go-round.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Indeed there is but we cant seem to compete with the likes of Korea , or aren't clever enough to manipulate tender offers like the french ( see the bombardier debacle).

It depends on what you make though. I've written a lot about German manufacturing so I will not repeat myself. And there are a number of boom sectors, even in the UK.

And it's totally true about the Bombardier contract. Both the French and Germans tenders put reasonable and sensible requirements like a close understanding and relationship with the business/industry. Legit requirements which favour their own nation's business. I recall that we did not want to stoop to the levels of other nations...as an excuse for losing out. Other nations generally play (just) within the rules and get the contracts.

 

[portlock seagull]

Lets put that in the national context. View Britain as a business. That's all the civil service sacked as we can't afford them!

Your post would suggest you have never run a business. There are many factors that make a business solvent or not. One being staffing costs. If you went into a pub, you would want to served quickly, if there was only one member of staff on and they were busy how long would you wait? . So the owner sees this and employs another member of staff, doubling his staffing costs. The pub patrons now get served quicker but does he make any more money? Its a fine balance between supply and demand. The pub up the road is a countrywide business, gets its products for a fraction of the price. It gets cheap loans to buy the property against your extortionate rent. Its able to offer staff incentives you can not. You go bust, your staff lose their jobs, you, your home and the locals another pub bites the dust.

Many farming activities in this country are not profitable should all these go bust? Are you happy getting your pork from the rest of Europe? Where they do not have to comply to the same rules (animal welfare) or would you be happy to pay a higher price for the product. If so PM me as I'm a piggy farmer!!

Seriously though its easy to say a business should be able to do this, do that but in the position this country is in businesses can not raise their prices to match their costs, people will not wear it. Raising wages is inflationary and is not the answer as it causes a merry-go-round.

Think you'll find Herr T is a successfully self-employed...