[Albion] Potter's players

DarrenFreemansPerm · May 21, 2019

One Teddy Maybank said:
Erm a counter by definition works better the deeper you are. (Generally).

Line of defenders, not really, normally 2 back on corners.

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It doesn’t matter how deep you start a counter if you don’t have players further up the field to drag defenders out of position.
When we counter our most advanced player has usually been about 25 yards from our goal line, that’s really easy to defend if the opposition have left two players back. You need to have an outlet, sure, start deep but you need an out ball to start panicking the opposing defenders. Bournemouth for example, kept leaving Wilson high up the pitch, one ball into his feet and we were in shitsville, us on the other hand, we win the ball but have no outlet, so Knockaert is trying to run the ball 80 yards, it just isn’t going to be as effective.

Harry Wilson's tackle · May 21, 2019

the right footed denilson said:
Where are these rumours coming from? Who are the players? How visible are they? How often?
Personally think Bloom would annihilate anyone doing this consistently.

Bloom would annihilate the man in charge who is supposed to have his finger on the pulse of such things.

Oh.

One Teddy Maybank · May 21, 2019

DarrenFreemansPerm said:
It doesn’t matter how deep you start a counter if you don’t have players further up the field to drag defenders out of position.
When we counter our most advanced player has usually been about 25 yards from our goal line, that’s really easy to defend if the opposition have left two players back. You need to have an outlet, sure, start deep but you need an out ball to start panicking the opposing defenders. Bournemouth for example, kept leaving Wilson high up the pitch, one ball into his feet and we were in shitsville, us on the other hand, we win the ball but have no outlet, so Knockaert is trying to run the ball 80 yards, it just isn’t going to be as effective.

No it doesn’t but that is why I said (generally), very rarely will you counter from midway in your own half, because your opponent won’t condense play into a 15 yard area. Realistically, a counter attack is as a result of an opponents sloppy play or a broken set piece.

I maintain We have been ineffective because of the lack of pace. The most recent successes were At Arsenal away, when March broke for the penalty or even Spurs away when Andone it went through, both of those started relatively deep.

With AJ, Locadia, Gross and Murray that is simply not an option.

The Bournemouth example is a really good one, but Murray doesn’t have the level of mobility of Wilson.

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Swansman · May 22, 2019

Machiavelli said:
Thank you so much for this Swansman. This is really informative, and is in keeping with another lengthy thorough entry from another message board that was re-posted by [MENTION=29779]Whitechapel[/MENTION]. I'd be interested to hear your view of the content of that. I'm also interested in your supporting background. Your name suggests that you're a Swansea fan, but the fact that you've been following Potter for three years suggests otherwise.
I'm very excited by the appointment, although there is a big task ahead in an unforgiving league. We went into a shell in the second half of the season so it'll require quite a turnaround, which ultimately put paid to a wonderful period under Hughton. Despite the disquiet over that decision, our chairman is very loyal and astute, and I hope that Potter stays for a while even if we go down. On which, my initial view is that if we survive next season, Potter's relevant ideas will really begin to take hold and we might be able to step a little above our current relegation candidate status. One final question: do you think he'll be able to keep us up next season?

My supporting background.. I'm a 30 year old Swede, despite being a complete nerd I never really had a favorite team. I just loved watching good attacking football, so I followed the Dutch Eredivisie for a lot of year, developing some love towards Dutch teams and also their national team. When Russia and (especially) Qatar got the World Cups I got tired of the whole ****ing sports.

About three years ago I was reading about Graham Potter, his methods and attitude, and found him to be a very inspirational individual with very good values. With good values I dont mean the abstract "peace on earth" bullshit, but making every player feel seen, and his "obsession" with making the city he's working in also identify with the team on the pitch. No big egos, no flashy signings. The thing he did in Östersund where he took players with difficult backgrounds - former talents, ex-criminals, people who got off track in life - and turning them into excellent players and people - really spoke to me.

So when he joined Swansea last summer, I started following the team very intensly and now... I'm sort of stuck with them, but I will be watching all your games and cheer for you in the PL as well as stick around here on the forum. After all, Brighton and Swansea have a lot of similarities to how they approach football for the last ten years or so.

The post Whitechapel quoted is a short, good summary of what Potter did in Östersund. I have translated a lot of Swedish articles about Potter in the past and might post some of them here somewhere once I've tracked back and considered their relevance to what is going to be happening in Brighton.

I definitely think Brighton will manage to stay up since you have good ownership, good facilities and Potter as a coach. Could be a bit rough in the beginning, but he has had rough episodes before and always solved them. However, I think a lot of you are overestimating your squad. From the (admittedly pretty few) Brighton games I've seen the last season, Hughton did no more or no less than you could expect.

What will be interesting to me as a Potterian is to see him work with older players. Östersund had one of the youngest squad in Allsvenskan and Swansea the youngest in the Championship, so working with your rather old squad is a new experience to him. However, since he brought new life into the stone dead likes of Nathan Dyer and Wayne Routledge, I dont expect it to be a problem.

perseus · May 23, 2019

One Teddy Maybank said:
No it doesn’t but that is why I said (generally), very rarely will you counter from midway in your own half, because your opponent won’t condense play into a 15 yard area. Realistically, a counter attack is as a result of an opponents sloppy play or a broken set piece.

I maintain We have been ineffective because of the lack of pace. The most recent successes were At Arsenal away, when March broke for the penalty or even Spurs away when Andone it went through, both of those started relatively deep.

With AJ, Locadia, Gross and Murray that is simply not an option.

The Bournemouth example is a really good one, but Murray doesn’t have the level of mobility of Wilson.

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whoscored doesn't define a counter attack; https://www.whoscored.com/Glossary

To me it should be defined as coming from your own half. It usually requires three or more players.

Losing the ball or being dispossessed in your own half is usually classed as an error. e.g. Bissouma at Anfield.

perseus · May 23, 2019

Swansman said:
My supporting background.. I'm a 30 year old Swede, despite being a complete nerd I never really had a favorite team. I just loved watching good attacking football, so I followed the Dutch Eredivisie for a lot of year, developing some love towards Dutch teams and also their national team. When Russia and (especially) Qatar got the World Cups I got tired of the whole ****ing sports.

About three years ago I was reading about Graham Potter, his methods and attitude, and found him to be a very inspirational individual with very good values. With good values I dont mean the abstract "peace on earth" bullshit, but making every player feel seen, and his "obsession" with making the city he's working in also identify with the team on the pitch. No big egos, no flashy signings. The thing he did in Östersund where he took players with difficult backgrounds - former talents, ex-criminals, people who got off track in life - and turning them into excellent players and people - really spoke to me.

So when he joined Swansea last summer, I started following the team very intensly and now... I'm sort of stuck with them, but I will be watching all your games and cheer for you in the PL as well as stick around here on the forum. After all, Brighton and Swansea have a lot of similarities to how they approach football for the last ten years or so.

The post Whitechapel quoted is a short, good summary of what Potter did in Östersund. I have translated a lot of Swedish articles about Potter in the past and might post some of them here somewhere once I've tracked back and considered their relevance to what is going to be happening in Brighton.

I definitely think Brighton will manage to stay up since you have good ownership, good facilities and Potter as a coach. Could be a bit rough in the beginning, but he has had rough episodes before and always solved them. However, I think a lot of you are overestimating your squad. From the (admittedly pretty few) Brighton games I've seen the last season, Hughton did no more or no less than you could expect.

What will be interesting to me as a Potterian is to see him work with older players. Östersund had one of the youngest squad in Allsvenskan and Swansea the youngest in the Championship, so working with your rather old squad is a new experience to him. However, since he brought new life into the stone dead likes of Nathan Dyer and Wayne Routledge, I dont expect it to be a problem.

Goals scored from open play by the Albion:

2018-19

T 12 H 6 A 6

2017-18

T 23 H 17 A 6

11 goals fall at home, lessened by 3 counter attack goals

Groß and Izquierdo being injured could account for all of this by stats.

Tokyohands · May 23, 2019

Baldseagull said:
but Murray is the biggest question mark for me as to whether Potter sees him fitting in, purely on energy level..

Murray I think could play an excellent role later in games as he's great at harrying defences, especially tired ones. He's very capable of playing that role a little further back to lay on pacey forwards. Hopefully Potter will see that he still has plenty to offer and utilize him at least until his current contract is up.

Juan Albion · May 23, 2019

Swansman said:
My supporting background.. I'm a 30 year old Swede, despite being a complete nerd I never really had a favorite team. I just loved watching good attacking football, so I followed the Dutch Eredivisie for a lot of year, developing some love towards Dutch teams and also their national team. When Russia and (especially) Qatar got the World Cups I got tired of the whole ****ing sports.

About three years ago I was reading about Graham Potter, his methods and attitude, and found him to be a very inspirational individual with very good values. With good values I dont mean the abstract "peace on earth" bullshit, but making every player feel seen, and his "obsession" with making the city he's working in also identify with the team on the pitch. No big egos, no flashy signings. The thing he did in Östersund where he took players with difficult backgrounds - former talents, ex-criminals, people who got off track in life - and turning them into excellent players and people - really spoke to me.

So when he joined Swansea last summer, I started following the team very intensly and now... I'm sort of stuck with them, but I will be watching all your games and cheer for you in the PL as well as stick around here on the forum. After all, Brighton and Swansea have a lot of similarities to how they approach football for the last ten years or so.

The post Whitechapel quoted is a short, good summary of what Potter did in Östersund. I have translated a lot of Swedish articles about Potter in the past and might post some of them here somewhere once I've tracked back and considered their relevance to what is going to be happening in Brighton.

I definitely think Brighton will manage to stay up since you have good ownership, good facilities and Potter as a coach. Could be a bit rough in the beginning, but he has had rough episodes before and always solved them. However, I think a lot of you are overestimating your squad. From the (admittedly pretty few) Brighton games I've seen the last season, Hughton did no more or no less than you could expect.

What will be interesting to me as a Potterian is to see him work with older players. Östersund had one of the youngest squad in Allsvenskan and Swansea the youngest in the Championship, so working with your rather old squad is a new experience to him. However, since he brought new life into the stone dead likes of Nathan Dyer and Wayne Routledge, I dont expect it to be a problem.

My Swedish is as good as your English. Honestly. Well, ok, I lied.

But I might say something about the age of our squad. Yes, Bruno was older, as is Murray, but not many others in the squad are the wrong side of thirty. There are certainly younger squads, but with Bruno gone, our average isn't as bad as some people have made out.

Justice · May 23, 2019

BensGrandad said:
Shown he is good championship level but not Premier as the defenders are that much better.

Didn’t watch the semi final then? It’s obvious you have an agenda against AK last week you valued him between £3-5m.

Justice · May 23, 2019

the right footed denilson said:
Struggle to see how he fits in to an energetic, pressing, dynamic team personally. He was marvellous in his first season but I think he might not feature hugely under Potter.
We need to inject pace into this team, and at the moment i'm wondering how we do that without wholesale changes....

He played the pressing game in Germany quite well enough for our scouts to notice him.

Stat Brother · May 23, 2019

DarrenFreemansPerm said:
It doesn’t matter how deep you start a counter if you don’t have players further up the field to drag defenders out of position.
When we counter our most advanced player has usually been about 25 yards from our goal line, that’s really easy to defend if the opposition have left two players back. You need to have an outlet, sure, start deep but you need an out ball to start panicking the opposing defenders. Bournemouth for example, kept leaving Wilson high up the pitch, one ball into his feet and we were in shitsville, us on the other hand, we win the ball but have no outlet, so Knockaert is trying to run the ball 80 yards, it just isn’t going to be as effective.

One Teddy Maybank said:
No it doesn’t but that is why I said (generally), very rarely will you counter from midway in your own half, because your opponent won’t condense play into a 15 yard area. Realistically, a counter attack is as a result of an opponents sloppy play or a broken set piece.

I maintain We have been ineffective because of the lack of pace. The most recent successes were At Arsenal away, when March broke for the penalty or even Spurs away when Andone it went through, both of those started relatively deep.

With AJ, Locadia, Gross and Murray that is simply not an option.

The Bournemouth example is a really good one, but Murray doesn’t have the level of mobility of Wilson.

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DFP nails this.

I find the whole fallacy of 'no pace' amazing.
It's as if a large contingent of NSC think the ball can't move unless it's at a players foot.

The 'pace' Potty will be looking for will come from quick forward PASSING.

The most extreme (and completely unfair) example is v Man City.
In the first half Kompany et al played 5-10 yards inside our half.

I, and I genuinely mean that, I, could have once played Andone in with pace just by booting the ball into a 50 x 30 yard rectangle of space that was less populated than the aussie Outback. (sure it would have taken 100 attempts and the winner would have just been luck, but I'm not a professional soccerballist).

In the Premier League, footballers at the Albion's level don't repeatedly beat the opposition.
The ball does the work and the player has half a yards head start.

That is where the pace comes from.

Stephens to Dunk, to Bruno, to Ryan, to Bruno, then to Knockaert is not under any circumstances pace.

One Teddy Maybank · May 23, 2019

perseus said:
whoscored doesn't define a counter attack; https://www.whoscored.com/Glossary

To me it should be defined as coming from your own half. It usually requires three or more players.

Losing the ball or being dispossessed in your own half is usually classed as an error. e.g. Bissouma at Anfield.

But you can only come from your own half and it is deep in your own half, and you have gained possession normally by an error/set piece broken (goalie takes a cross).

The best example of Bournemouth’s first goal at The Amex is bang on, Propper lost it cheaply on the edge of the area, their transition was excellent, 5-10 secs later we’re one down.

Bissouma is a poor example, because as you say it’s an error, we’re already deep our own half, Balogun on our penalty area, so that’s not a counter-attack, it’s a forward press.

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One Teddy Maybank · May 23, 2019

Stat Brother said:
DFP nails this.

I find the whole fallacy of 'no pace' amazing.
It's as if a large contingent of NSC think the ball can't move unless it's at a players foot.

The 'pace' Potty will be looking for will come from quick forward PASSING.

The most extreme (and completely unfair) example is v Man City.
In the first half Kompany et al played 5-10 yards inside our half.

I, and I genuinely mean that, I, could have once played Andone in with pace just by booting the ball into a 50 x 30 yard rectangle of space that was less populated than the aussie Outback. (sure it would have taken 100 attempts and the winner would have just been luck, but I'm not a professional soccerballist).

In the Premier League, footballers at the Albion's level don't repeatedly beat the opposition.
The ball does the work and the player has half a yards head start.

That is where the pace comes from.

Stephens to Dunk, to Bruno, to Ryan, to Bruno, then to Knockaert is not under any circumstances pace.

You can gain space by clever movement, but (Solly apart), you rarely beat anyone from a standing start. Of course passing is important.

Progressive football is playing with width and into space.

Has Izquierdo ever beaten anyone with anything but pace? Knockaert has skill, but doesn’t have blistering pace, against better athletes and consequently, has to a degree, been less effective.

All season you’ve moaned about Murray being slow, but he still has touch, so should he play?

My initial point is about a lack of pace in the final third, that remains, we sat because we wanted and couldn’t (and as we stand), can’t, counter attack effectively.

Edit
BTW: the discussion with DFP, was counter attacking, so am unclear why you’ve used City camped in our half? [emoji2]

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father_and_son · May 23, 2019

Blatter said:
I think that one of the reasons Graham Potter has been brought in is because he appears to be a motivational specialist and able to work with an existing team, on a budget.

I don't think that there'll be a wholesale change of players, more an attitude of "Here's the players we've spent money on, some of whom haven't fulfilled their potential yet. Get the best out of them that you can."

I believe that there are likely to be one or two "budget" purchases but on the whole it'll be last season's newly (Potter) motivated squad, with a few tweaks.

Please can the tweaks include using some of the young talent we have been stockpiling and wasting?

forumwayseagull · May 23, 2019

father_and_son said:
Please can the tweaks include using some of the young talent we have been stockpiling and wasting?

Why budget signings, we are not in league 1. We still received over 100 million pounds for last year and will have more this coming season....To stay competitive all squads need to strengthen appropriately. I feel we will target 3-5 quality players to improve team. This linked with improved fitness/confidence and resurgence of some players recently signed could/should make a huge difference ( a bit like when Poyet first joined).
Emphasis will definitely be young and British talented players coming in.

Machiavelli · May 23, 2019

Swansman said:
My supporting background.. I'm a 30 year old Swede, despite being a complete nerd I never really had a favorite team. I just loved watching good attacking football, so I followed the Dutch Eredivisie for a lot of year, developing some love towards Dutch teams and also their national team. When Russia and (especially) Qatar got the World Cups I got tired of the whole ****ing sports.

About three years ago I was reading about Graham Potter, his methods and attitude, and found him to be a very inspirational individual with very good values. With good values I dont mean the abstract "peace on earth" bullshit, but making every player feel seen, and his "obsession" with making the city he's working in also identify with the team on the pitch. No big egos, no flashy signings. The thing he did in Östersund where he took players with difficult backgrounds - former talents, ex-criminals, people who got off track in life - and turning them into excellent players and people - really spoke to me.

So when he joined Swansea last summer, I started following the team very intensly and now... I'm sort of stuck with them, but I will be watching all your games and cheer for you in the PL as well as stick around here on the forum. After all, Brighton and Swansea have a lot of similarities to how they approach football for the last ten years or so.

The post Whitechapel quoted is a short, good summary of what Potter did in Östersund. I have translated a lot of Swedish articles about Potter in the past and might post some of them here somewhere once I've tracked back and considered their relevance to what is going to be happening in Brighton.

I definitely think Brighton will manage to stay up since you have good ownership, good facilities and Potter as a coach. Could be a bit rough in the beginning, but he has had rough episodes before and always solved them. However, I think a lot of you are overestimating your squad. From the (admittedly pretty few) Brighton games I've seen the last season, Hughton did no more or no less than you could expect.

What will be interesting to me as a Potterian is to see him work with older players. Östersund had one of the youngest squad in Allsvenskan and Swansea the youngest in the Championship, so working with your rather old squad is a new experience to him. However, since he brought new life into the stone dead likes of Nathan Dyer and Wayne Routledge, I dont expect it to be a problem.

Many thanks. All interesting. I agree that our squad isn't up to much. It's a bottom five or six of the PL squad. I've been saying for a while that we need to target quality over quantity in future transfer windows, including the current one we're in.
I'm intrigued as to the type of players we sign this window, especially as it's the first without Hughton, and the first with Potter and Ashworth. I'm expecting younger, hungrier players with a point to prove.
Regarding age, our best players are at a good age point. These for me, roughly in descending order of quality are: Dunk, Bernardo, Gross, Ryan, Bissouma, March, Duffy, Izquierdo and Propper.

father_and_son · May 23, 2019

forumwayseagull said:
Why budget signings, we are not in league 1. We still received over 100 million pounds for last year and will have more this coming season....To stay competitive all squads need to strengthen appropriately. I feel we will target 3-5 quality players to improve team. This linked with improved fitness/confidence and resurgence of some players recently signed could/should make a huge difference ( a bit like when Poyet first joined).
Emphasis will definitely be young and British talented players coming in.

Young players are the difference between a successful club and an also ran. I'm not saying they have to take up all the starting poisitions and minutes on the field but for every 10 players in the u23, 5 won't make it, but the other 5 will be good enough to be sold for a profit. It's that profit that funds the squad really. Everyone has TV money so to win the bidding wars you have to have a little more than everyone else. The academy funds that, it's what it's there to do.
Maybe 1 in 100 is worth keeping but most are for profit. To maximise that we/they need to show their strengths and to do that they need game time.

Bwian · May 23, 2019

One Teddy Maybank said:
Depends if he learns what an overlap is. Constantly ran inside last season, rather than giving Knockaert an outside option a la Bruno.....

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Coaching?

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One Teddy Maybank · May 23, 2019

Bwian said:
Coaching?

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What U12 level. Trust the player to do the right thing

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Stat Brother · May 23, 2019

One Teddy Maybank said:
You can gain space by clever movement, but (Solly apart), you rarely beat anyone from a standing start. Of course passing is important.

Progressive football is playing with width and into space.

Has Izquierdo ever beaten anyone with anything but pace? Knockaert has skill, but doesn’t have blistering pace, against better athletes and consequently, has to a degree, been less effective.

All season you’ve moaned about Murray being slow, but he still has touch, so should he play?

My initial point is about a lack of pace in the final third, that remains, we sat because we wanted and couldn’t (and as we stand), can’t, counter attack effectively.

Edit
BTW: the discussion with DFP, was counter attacking, so am unclear why you’ve used City camped in our half? [emoji2]

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Because the Albion had over half the pitch to counter attack into, and couldnt do it because Murray was on the pitch.

The counter attacking pass couldnt be played because frankly City would have laughed at us.
There was one occasion where Ali had the ball, on the wing, and were it not for the fact the ball was on his wrong foot!!! the pass was on.

Unsurprisingly it didnt happen because he was the furthest forward by 20 or 30 yards.

Now Ali didnt get into that position because he outpaced the opposition, he was passed into it.

I expect to see a bit more of that from 4 or 5 players instead of just 1 or 2 occasionally.

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