[News] Becky Watts

Diego Napier · Nov 13, 2015

symyjym said:
It hasn't, the conversation is fluid and you brought up the burden of collective conscience which relates to anyone ordering it or carrying it out as an order, family or otherwise.

I went on to say as an example; to order the execution of someone via drone strike doesn't seem to have been considered too much of a heavy burden to the person who ordered it or the guy that pressed the fire button. So as far as executions go there is not a lot of difference, but the burden of conscience still lies with someone.

Whilst I understand the argument for the families not dictating the death sentence as not being fair on them, if a death sentence was given, the family could plea for clemency and save the accused life. In any case people wouldn't be taken out of court and killed in the corridor so they still have a chance even in the US.

Anyone who acted like Nathan Matthews and dismembers a body deserves to live with the possible eventuality of being executed later down the line. Whether they are or not is a different matter.

Are you really trying to suggest that someone in the military being ordered to take a life is an appropriate analogy for allowing the bereaved relatives of a victim to determine whether the culprit is executed? Good Grief!

And then you go on to further muddy the waters by suggesting that a victim's family could plead for the executioner to stay his hand, as though that in some way justifies your suggestion. So you're also advocating the death sentence to be imposed by the state as well as the victim's relatives. You refer to the US where there are 4 times more murders per head of population than the UK; the death sentence works well there doesn't it?

The conversation's fluid? Your thought processes are positively febrile. In fact, reading through your messy illogical attempt at justification, here's the most appropriate response:

GT49er · Nov 13, 2015

bernster said:
Edited for accuracy

................in a most stupid and flippant way. Whether for the death penalty or not, do you seriously think that spending a few million over the course of their lifetime to keep them warm, fed, clothed and cared for - although it may be considered morally justifiable - is good value for money for the taxpayer?

Tyrone Biggums · Nov 13, 2015

bernster said:
Edited for accuracy

How is it well spent?

What does the tax payer get back in return for their investment?

Blue Valkyrie · Nov 13, 2015

Chain them to a wall in a deep, dark dungeon with a burning torch carrying gaoler to bring them their gruel.

Tyrone Biggums · Nov 13, 2015

GT49er said:
................in a most stupid and flippant way. Whether for the death penalty or not, do you seriously think that spending a few million over the course of their lifetime to keep them warm, fed, clothed and cared for - although it may be considered morally justifiable - is good value for money for the taxpayer?

The irony is the ones who want the death penalty are the compasionate ones. The ones who want people locked up for life are the sadists.

drew · Nov 13, 2015

GT49er said:
................in a most stupid and flippant way. Whether for the death penalty or not, do you seriously think that spending a few million over the course of their lifetime to keep them warm, fed, clothed and cared for - although it may be considered morally justifiable - is good value for money for the taxpayer?

Do you honestly think that the decision to apply a capital punishment should be done on economic terms?

In the US, the average length of time spent on death row in as at 2010 was 198 months, ie 15 years in which time prisoners are kept in virtual solitary confinement. Some have spent over 20 years on death row whilst various appeals etc play out in the various courts.

drew · Nov 13, 2015

Tyrone Biggums said:
The irony is the ones who want the death penalty are the compasionate ones. The ones who want people locked up for life are the sadists.

That is, of course, just your opinion.

Tyrone Biggums · Nov 13, 2015

drew said:
That is, of course, just your opinion.

It's a reality.

What are you keeping them alive for? Them or your own fear of mortality?

GT49er · Nov 13, 2015

drew said:
Do you honestly think that the decision to apply a capital punishment should be done on economic terms?

In the US, the average length of time spent on death row in as at 2010 was 198 months, ie 15 years in which time prisoners are kept in virtual solitary confinement. Some have spent over 20 years on death row whilst various appeals etc play out in the various courts.

I do wish you would check what a post is replying to before interpreting it to suit your own subjective views. Some idiot was saying what good value it was to keep people locked up for life. The fact is it may be morally justifiable, but in pure economic terms it isn't; there is no return on the money spent.
And the US has got nothing to do with it.

drew · Nov 13, 2015

Tyrone Biggums said:
It's a reality.

What are you keeping them alive for? Them or your own fear of mortality?

No, it is still your opinion.

They are kept in prison as a punishment and also as a deterrent to others. Kill them and there punishment and suffering is over. Take Jihadi John, the wife of one of his victims had stated that she wanted him captured alive and to spend a long time in a jail rather than make a martyr out of him.

As for fear of mortality, yes, I do fear mortality because that's it. In my opinion there is no happy clappy afterlife. That has no bearing on whether we should have capital punishment or not.

happypig · Nov 13, 2015

I've never believed in capital punishment and, harrowing as this case is, I still don't; I just don't see it as right that we, collectively, kill someone in cold blood as punishment.

Tyrone Biggums · Nov 13, 2015

drew said:
No, it is still your opinion.

They are kept in prison as a punishment and also as a deterrent to others. Kill them and there punishment and suffering is over. Take Jihadi John, the wife of one of his victims had stated that she wanted him captured alive and to spend a long time in a jail rather than make a martyr out of him.

So we should ask the familes then? What If the victims family wants them dead to end their suffering? You're all good with them suffering knowing the person who killed their loved one is still breathing?

drew · Nov 13, 2015

GT49er said:
I do wish you would check what a post is replying to before interpreting it to suit your own subjective views. Some idiot was saying what good value it was to keep people locked up for life. The fact is it may be morally justifiable, but in pure economic terms it isn't; there is no return on the money spent.
And the US has got nothing to do with it.

Sorry. I know someone else made the comment about it being 'money well spent' (although it was our Aussie 'chum' who made reference to cost) but wasn't it also your post that made a reference to value for money?

Sticking with 'value for money' for our most dangerous prisoners, it costs £59k per year. If there were numerous appeals right up to the highest level, you can expect the cost of those to run into a couple of million which, very roughly, would be 30 years. In other words, it isn't clear cut when it comes to comparing costs.

The US is an example. Do you think it would be much different here in respect of appeal after appeal or do you think it is just a case of the judge putting the black cloth on his head and the court officers then taking the prisoner out back to the gallows!!

Where I agree with you is where you previously said that life should mean life and in solitary.

drew · Nov 13, 2015

Tyrone Biggums said:
So we should ask the familes then? What If the victims family wants them dead to end their suffering? You're all good with them suffering knowing the person who killed their loved one is still breathing?

No, I'm not saying it should be down to the family.

highway61 · Nov 13, 2015

Since my daughter Claire's untimely death over Christmas 2006 at the hands of her partner (Claire is my only child) I have resisted sharing a view on these threads, due to a degree id say as self protection, because I know how heated the capital punishment debate can be. Her murder had wide media coverage due in no small amount to the brutality of her death, and in the days following the trials conclusion I had a number of media calls, who's only remit I fear, was to stoke up capital punishment debate, and/or cast blame upon police etc. I fully accept people have strong views either side of the debate, and these are mine. They are personal and bound to fly in the face of many, but I respect your stance.

Before Claire was murdered I was was strongly opposed to Capital Punishment and I still feel that way. My view has not changed, though as I said before I respect other opinions. I asked myself a lot of questions of course, and went through terrible bouts of anger, resentment, revengeful thinking, the whole gamut of emotions obviously. I don't know if one ever comes through the other side, fully, but I do know that I have come a long way in the healing process. The Judge gave the correct tariff, with minimum date for release that he could, the police were amazing throughout, travelling down from Shropshire at any time day or night to be with me if only for an hour. Victim support in later years also helped the hardest process, that of forgiveness, which is another story id rather not enter into other than to say I did not forgive for his benefit, but for mine. I have no doubts whatsoever that for ME capital punishment would not have been closure at all.

Thanks for listening/reading this. I wanted to share a number of times but the heated discussion put me off. If anyone should feel inclined to PM me feel free, but id rather not enter too much more on this thread.

highway61 · Nov 13, 2015

I also meant to add that although revenge may have bought me some instant rewards maybe, it would also leave another family mourning. I think it's a very personal thing and no right or wrong way of coping with such trauma.

symyjym · Nov 13, 2015

Diego Napier said:
Are you really trying to suggest that someone in the military being ordered to take a life is an appropriate analogy for allowing the bereaved relatives of a victim to determine whether the culprit is executed? Good Grief!

And then you go on to further muddy the waters by suggesting that a victim's family could plead for the executioner to stay his hand, as though that in some way justifies your suggestion. So you're also advocating the death sentence to be imposed by the state as well as the victim's relatives. You refer to the US where there are 4 times more murders per head of population than the UK; the death sentence works well there doesn't it?

The conversation's fluid? Your thought processes are positively febrile. In fact, reading through your messy illogical attempt at justification, here's the most appropriate response:

Calm down, talk about rambling and being febrile

Can one not play devils advocate in a discussion anymore? Debates would be pretty dull if people dare not make thought provoking comments. Sorry that I made you and others feel so riled by this and that the Becky Watts case isn't worthy of such a discussion. :shrug:

In any case you have completely missed my original point and for your note I have not suggested a CP blanket rule for all murder cases.

#1

symyjym said:
Such a sad and evil story, but surely with extreme cases like this there should be justification for capital punishment? especially when the accused pleads not guilty and drags a family through an extended living nightmare.

Killing is bad enough but dismembering a body takes It to another level of depravity altogether.

#15

symyjym said:
It's not a robbery gone wrong or diminished responsibility. It was premeditated, sexually motivated and involves the dismembering of a body.

Hamilton · Nov 13, 2015

highway61 said:
Since my daughter Claire's untimely death over Christmas 2006 at the hands of her partner (Claire is my only child) I have resisted sharing a view on these threads, due to a degree id say as self protection, because I know how heated the capital punishment debate can be. Her murder had wide media coverage due in no small amount to the brutality of her death, and in the days following the trials conclusion I had a number of media calls, who's only remit I fear, was to stoke up capital punishment debate, and/or cast blame upon police etc. I fully accept people have strong views either side of the debate, and these are mine. They are personal and bound to fly in the face of many, but I respect your stance.

Before Claire was murdered I was was strongly opposed to Capital Punishment and I still feel that way. My view has not changed, though as I said before I respect other opinions. I asked myself a lot of questions of course, and went through terrible bouts of anger, resentment, revengeful thinking, the whole gamut of emotions obviously. I don't know if one ever comes through the other side, fully, but I do know that I have come a long way in the healing process. The Judge gave the correct tariff, with minimum date for release that he could, the police were amazing throughout, travelling down from Shropshire at any time day or night to be with me if only for an hour. Victim support in later years also helped the hardest process, that of forgiveness, which is another story id rather not enter into other than to say I did not forgive for his benefit, but for mine. I have no doubts whatsoever that for ME capital punishment would not have been closure at all.

Thanks for listening/reading this. I wanted to share a number of times but the heated discussion put me off. If anyone should feel inclined to PM me feel free, but id rather not enter too much more on this thread.

Sir, I can not imagine the pain you will have been through. I am in admiration of your stance. Like you, I am anti-capital punishment, but unlike you, and like many on here, I have never had that conviction put to the test in the way you have. I am not sure how I would react if in your position. I would like to think I would be strong and firm and retain my views. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

Normal Rob · Nov 13, 2015

highway61 said:
Since my daughter Claire's untimely death over Christmas 2006 at the hands of her partner (Claire is my only child) I have resisted sharing a view on these threads, due to a degree id say as self protection, because I know how heated the capital punishment debate can be. Her murder had wide media coverage due in no small amount to the brutality of her death, and in the days following the trials conclusion I had a number of media calls, who's only remit I fear, was to stoke up capital punishment debate, and/or cast blame upon police etc. I fully accept people have strong views either side of the debate, and these are mine. They are personal and bound to fly in the face of many, but I respect your stance.

Before Claire was murdered I was was strongly opposed to Capital Punishment and I still feel that way. My view has not changed, though as I said before I respect other opinions. I asked myself a lot of questions of course, and went through terrible bouts of anger, resentment, revengeful thinking, the whole gamut of emotions obviously. I don't know if one ever comes through the other side, fully, but I do know that I have come a long way in the healing process. The Judge gave the correct tariff, with minimum date for release that he could, the police were amazing throughout, travelling down from Shropshire at any time day or night to be with me if only for an hour. Victim support in later years also helped the hardest process, that of forgiveness, which is another story id rather not enter into other than to say I did not forgive for his benefit, but for mine. I have no doubts whatsoever that for ME capital punishment would not have been closure at all.

Thanks for listening/reading this. I wanted to share a number of times but the heated discussion put me off. If anyone should feel inclined to PM me feel free, but id rather not enter too much more on this thread.

Sir,

Firstly my condolences on your loss. As time passes you learn to live with the void. But there is always a void. My wife lost a much loved family member to the hands of her partner a little over 3 years ago. It still haunts her. The murderer was put away for what i consider to be far too short a period given the viciousness of the attack (10 years originally, extended to 15 by a later court). Having experienced this personally, although from a provision of providing support to the person most directly affected, and having seen the anger and bitterness that it creates, it surprises me that i cannot condone capital punishment. But i cannot. That would be too easy for him.

Withdean11 · Nov 13, 2015

Normal Rob said:
That would be too easy for him.

Would it be easier on him that 10/15 years then released into society? I think spending you final days on death row (and let's be honest, it doesn't happen quickly) knowing what is to come spending every second thinking about it has to be a much harder punishment, and no less than murderers deserve IMO.

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