I'm just saying it's a moral and philosophical dilemma, that is all.
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Immigration soaring
- Thread starter sir albion
- Start date
I'm just saying it's a moral and philosophical dilemma, that is all.
I prefer the idea that we find a culture that suits us. It seems rather unimaginative and arbitrary to simply follow a culture because you were born into it. Make choices, instead of having them forced upon you "if you're worried about the weather, then you have found the wrong place to live"
As long as we continue to have an open door policy for immigrants, even if they come here to work, it will mean less jobs for British people. If we control immigration, then the lazy good-for-nothing Brits who don't work and don't plan to work could no longer use the excuse of no jobs being available. It would be a lot easier to force them to work because there would be plenty of jobs (including the menial ones like car washing now the exclusive terrain of Eastern Europeans) and we could refuse benefits when there was work available.
Personally I would rather that the British under-class was forced to work than have the jobs they should be doing filled by Eastern Europeans and others.
Personally, I'm not prepared to give up one of the largest free trade areas in the world (about to become bigger if the EU can do the deal they are talking about with the USA) just to force some British underclass out to get a job. The trade off is not worth it.
Benefits do cost us money and we do want Brits to get off their backsides and get a job, but not at the cost of British business.
Or as Doug Stanhope would say...
This
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Deleted member 22389
Guest
Something I don't know about, but didn't we already have free trade before immigration came along.
I have no issues with the culture side of immigration at all. My issue is that we as a country can't support the population growth as it currently stands - roughly 400k extra every year ( a 50/50 ish split between births and immigration ).
> We don't build enough homes for this increase
> We don't increase services such as doctors, school places, NHS resources etc to match this growth
> We don't generate enough jobs to cover this growth
We, as a nation, therefore have two stark choices :
1. Reduce the growth - only two real ways of doing that, control how many children are born ( not sure anyone would support that ) or control immigration.
2. Invest heavily in infrastructure but what do we do year on year while we ramp up ? We only built around 100k new homes last year - that is a small dent in the requirement to house an extra 440k people and doesn't take into account the increasing trend of people living by themselves.
So for me controlling immigration isn't a racist, cultural or bigoted thing to do, it's the pragmatic, sensible and practical part solution to population growth.
And I haven't even touched on digging up the green belt, supply of food and water problems and the ever increasing level of cars population growth brings !
This reminds me of an allegory from Socrates or Plato. He told a story of sitting on the city wall when he was approached by a traveller. The traveller asked Socrates what sort of town this was, because he was seeking a new home to get away from where he had come from. He described his old town as unjust and full of people he didn't trust or didn't like and would not want to be associated with. Socrates thought for a while and then turned to the traveller and said "oh this place is much the same." The traveller thanked Socrates and moved on to the next town.
A little later another traveller arrived. He too asked Socrates what the town was like. "What is your old town like?" asked Socrates. "Not bad," said the traveller, "the people are quite friendly, people seem to get along well; life is tough, but that's life and we all try to make the best of things." Socrates smiled and told the traveller that this town was much the same, and the traveller entered.
I'm not so sure. There's a significant skills shortage in technology consulting, engineering and in nursing to name 3 sectors. Very significant.
Yes, we need an answer to housing and over-population, I agree. I'm not convinced that leaving the EU or throwing up the borders is the answer to that. I'm not saying that this is what you are advocating.
Yes we did, but the significant increase being reported is due to our membership of the EU which brings with it substantial free trade benefits.
I am advocating leaving the EU but not only for the over population issue. I believe we should control all immigration to the UK and the only way we can do that is to leave the EU. Realistically we aren't going to invest so that leaves dealing with the growth in other ways.
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Deleted member 22389
Guest
Actually thou that is changing. Lots of immigration from the EU includes immigration from outside the EU. If you can look a bit deeper in to that problem, you might see why people like Farage has the point about open borders. As it is the EU is being swamped with Asylum Seekers from outside the EU, look at the numbers turning up at Lampedusa and other entry points to the EU - http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/16/lampedusa-island-of-hope
Look at the numbers in Calais waiting to get here. You simply can't leave these people wondering around, eventually they will either have to give everyone a passport offering travel to any part of the EU or each country in the EU zone will have to take these people. Now that sounds fine, but the problem is once you start doing that there will be hundreds if not millions of people from outside the EU all hoping to do the same thing.
We don't want to build more homes ... the country is FULL.
I drove the M25 the other Saturday morning from Watford to Crawley. Crawling all the way ... it took me TWO FRICKING HOURS. And there were no accidents or road closures .... just volume of traffic ... ON A SATURDAY MORNING.
The country is FULL UP. No more room.
To people hoping to come here to live .... GO AWAY.
To those already here ... STOP HAVING SO MANY KIDS ... two per couple is more than adequate.
Even if immigration was reduced to zero and people were restricted to two children there would still be population growth so we would still have to build new homes.
A truly humbling article. Thanks for sharing it.
What strikes me is the futility of immigration laws and the need to get at the root cause of the scale of deprivation that is causing people to want to reach a place where they can build a better life.
middletoenail
Well-known member
I bet you moaners didn't complain when you were watching Vicente dance around defenders at the Amex. Oh, but that's different!
And yet the most recent census shows that there is a property surplus that hasn't decreased in the last 10 years. Perhaps its more a case of the UK failing to find the right policies to enable housing development to take place?
RexCathedra
Aurea Mediocritas
It's more of a case of everyone wanting to live south of a line from the Severn to the Wash...
Guy Crouchback
New member
- Jun 20, 2012
- 665
I would like to encourage everyone not happy with the living conditions in the UK to come and live in Poland. 
Seriously, the country is bigger than Italy, but we only have about 37 million population. The wages are not great, but they are not that bad either--with a bit of luck and hard work one can make a living. There's a lot of great nature, forests, lakes and mountains, the food is delicious and the women are probably the most beautiful in the world.
So, if you are looking for simpler, humbler life, with probably lower wages, but in a less crowded country--Poland is where you want to go.
Seriously, the country is bigger than Italy, but we only have about 37 million population. The wages are not great, but they are not that bad either--with a bit of luck and hard work one can make a living. There's a lot of great nature, forests, lakes and mountains, the food is delicious and the women are probably the most beautiful in the world.
So, if you are looking for simpler, humbler life, with probably lower wages, but in a less crowded country--Poland is where you want to go.