[Politics] TV's Alexander Armstrong Vs VAT on private schooling

Flounce · Saturday at 8:00 AM

Pays your money, takes your choice. Both my kids went to private schools. We were not rich, lived in a small flat, drove knackered old cars, had about three cheap bargain holidays abroad in total whilst we were paying school fees and had pretty well no luxuries. Nearly everything we bought was second hand. Do I feel guilty, do I f***!

I MUST be a total cock though

and no I don’t agree with VAT being charged on private school fees. Definitely sailing this ship alone on here.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Saturday at 8:01 AM

Creaky said:
I have no preference one way or the other regarding VAT on school fees however I do have one question.

If the VAT exemption for school fees is removed will the fees universities charge students also attract VAT?

Universities are part of the state system (with some exceptions, such as Buckingham).
There would be as much logic to putting VAT on university fees as there would be putting VAT on prescription charges,
or council tax.

Iggle Piggle · Saturday at 8:01 AM

I was always a Tipping point man myself. Give me a bag of 2ps and I'll have that useless tat out the machine on the pier in no time.

um bongo molongo · Saturday at 8:03 AM

Eeyore said:
I don't blame parents for wanting to send their kids to private school, they just want the best for them. But the concept I find bewildering.

Many years ago, the CEO of my company spoke to me about moving to Queen's Park. They had plenty of dosh and a young daughter. I suggested places to view and explained that St Luke's School was consistently rated as outstanding. It was, at the time, the most sought after primary school in the country.

She did move to Queen's Park, ignoring my advice though, and paid for her kid to go to private school. I just couldn't work it out. All that money when the kid would have had a perfectly good education in the state system.

There seems to be a sense in many of the kids in that sector often grow up devoid of cultural integration. A friend of the family who was a teacher at a private school decided to send the kids to do outreach work in the local community, visiting older people who could do with company. My dad was on the list as he was caring for my Mum who had Alzheimers. I was there on one or two occasions and spoke to the kids but it was hard work. I heard their chatter and it seemed a world apart from the world I know.

When I was 12, my parents were in a group from my school who were contacted by Brighton College. They wouldn't have been able to afford it, so I think it must have been about a scholarship. I have vague memories of it. I am so glad they refused. The only thing I regret about it was missing out on the cricket though. That would have been good. Amazing ground.

My favourite author, Alan Bennett, often nailed it. He is always such a great listen

'My objection to private education is simply put, it is not fair. And to say that nothing is fair is not an answer'

I live in London (Queen’s Park) and see this as well. I think the unpalatable truth is that many parents don’t want their kids mixing with the full breadth of society. I have the same concern about faith schools.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Saturday at 8:06 AM

Flounce said:
Pays your money, takes your choice. Both my kids went to private schools. We were not rich, lived in a small flat, drove knackered old cars, had about three cheap bargain holidays abroad whilst we were paying school fees and had pretty well no luxuries. Nearly everything we bought was second hand. Do I feel guilty, do I f***!

I MUST be a total cock though

and no I don’t agree with VAT being charged on private school fees. Definitely sailing this ship alone on here.

Why would you be in favour of losing the benefit of a tax exemption?
And why would the rest of us be in favour of your taking advantage of such a tax exemption
:shrug:

At least, now you have exhausted the tax break (presumably your kids have long since left school)
we can salute your selflessly sticking up for all those impoverished parents that had been planning
to take advantage of the private school tax break, and whose hopes and dreams have now been crushed.
That's genuine altruism :bowdown:

Harry Wilson's tackle · Saturday at 8:20 AM

um bongo molongo said:
I live in London (Queen’s Park) and see this as well. I think the unpalatable truth is that many parents don’t want their kids mixing with the full breadth of society. I have the same concern about faith schools.

I left the labour party when Blair promoted faith schools in 2000, allowing them to become academies making them exempt from corporation tax
At the time schools could teach pretty much what they wanted.
The National Curriculum was not introduced till 2002.
At the time some Muslim schools were denying evolution and discriminating against females and cultivating a perverse culture.
At the time lunatics like Anjam Chowdrey were openly preaching hate on the street (this was a year before 9/11).
This has been described as Blair's greatest folly.

Thunder Bolt · Saturday at 8:21 AM

um bongo molongo said:
I live in London (Queen’s Park) and see this as well. I think the unpalatable truth is that many parents don’t want their kids mixing with the full breadth of society. I have the same concern about faith schools.

My kids went to local schools up north, but were quite bright, in fact, my daughter was very bright, but we had no money to spare.
They were both bullied a lot at those schools for working hard, but still went on to achieve good careers. My son coped with the bullying fairly well but at one stage, in both of their lives, the police were involved.

My daughter had a well paid job once she left uni, so sent her two to a private school so they could work hard without being assaulted nearly every day.
I can understand why.

As for VAT, yes, I think it should be paid, although I understand why faith schools have charity status because they offer scholarships.

ROSM · Saturday at 8:35 AM

My major bugbear here is how private schools, knowing this was coming for 3 years, made no effort to plan ahead and support their poor unfortunate customers now impacted by it. Either by other means of income, grants, reviewing costs etc

It's almost like they saw parents as a cash cow to keep on milking.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Saturday at 8:39 AM

Thunder Bolt said:
My kids went to local schools up north, but were quite bright, in fact, my daughter was very bright, but we had no money to spare.
They were both bullied a lot at those schools for working hard, but still went on to achieve good careers. My son coped with the bullying fairly well but at one stage, in both of their lives, the police were involved.

My daughter had a well paid job once she left uni, so sent her two to a private school so they could work hard without being assaulted nearly every day.
I can understand why.

As for VAT, yes, I think it should be paid, although I understand why faith schools have charity status because they offer scholarships.

I understand all that.

Ironically one of my pals, who boarded at Bradfield College, experienced 7 years of brutality and would never have sent his kids to private school
(had he had any, which in the end he didn't).
Another pal spent several years in what would be regarded as an illegal 'relationship' at his boarding school, and this was not exceptional.

But the bottom line is that if you have the money you should (and of course in this country can) spend it as you see fit.
I don't mind a bit of tax offsetting via the offering of scholarships,
but that should not mean that the regular fee-paying parents should enjoy a tax break, does it?

As an aside I would like to think that we have moved on somewhat in terms of safeguarding now.
That of course does not preclude abuse.
But 40 or more (or less) years ago what was allowed or was disregarded was eye-watering by today's standards.

Looking forward to a lovely drive and some top notch footy today.
If you are too, have a good one :thumbsup:

WATFORD zero · Saturday at 8:45 AM

Of course people should have the choice how they spend their money and I've never said any different.

But then expecting all taxpayers to subsidise them because it's obviously not a charity but has charity 'tax status' ? Not for me.

bhafc99 · Saturday at 8:46 AM

ROSM said:
My major bugbear here is how private schools, knowing this was coming for 3 years, made no effort to plan ahead and support their poor unfortunate customers now impacted by it. Either by other means of income, grants, reviewing costs etc

It's almost like they saw parents as a cash cow to keep on milking.

Actually that’s not true. A lot of private schools worked hard to make the 20% a tapered increase that is phased over several years. For example, putting fees up 5% this first year of VAT, rather than the full 20%. Only an exceptional few have implemented the 20% in full.

Hugo Rune · Saturday at 8:47 AM

Creaky said:
I have no preference one way or the other regarding VAT on school fees however I do have one question.

If the VAT exemption for school fees is removed will the fees universities charge students also attract VAT?

I doubt it.

I think there is a difference between paying for education for yourself or for your kids.

If parents were expected to fork out (and I know wealthy ones do) for their kid’s University education, they’d be no such thing as a student loan.

Private education is elitist so should be taxed. Most Universities are not elitist.

ROSM · Saturday at 8:48 AM

bhafc99 said:
Actually that’s not true. A lot of private schools worked hard to make the 20% a tapered increase that is phased over several years. For example, putting fees up 5% this first year of VAT, rather than the full 20%. Only an exceptional few have implemented the 20% in full.

So why is there such an outpouring of anger in the media?

Every parent i work with who sent kids to private school have seen the fees increase by 20%. They can't all be sending them to the exceptions?

Hugo Rune · Saturday at 8:52 AM

ROSM said:
So why is there such an outpouring of anger in the media?

The anger is just in the Torygraph, Mail and Express. People who own the right wing media (most of it) either send their kids to private school or represent people who do.

After 14 years of wretched government policy preventing poor people getting richer, it’s amazing to see policies aimed at curbing rich people getting richer.

ROSM · Saturday at 8:57 AM

Hugo Rune said:
I doubt it.

I think there is a difference between paying for education for yourself or for your kids.

If parents were expected to fork out (and I know wealthy ones do) for their kid’s University education, they’d be no such thing as a student loan.

Private education is elitist so should be taxed. Most Universities are not elitist.

You don't have to be overly wealthy either.

Tuition fees at 9k go onto student loan
Year 1 halls fees are between 180 and 300 a week for c42weeks so between 7.5k and 12.5k a year (paid up front in 3 instalments)..average is 240 a week so 10k

Maintenance grant max outside London is c10.5k . That reduces ona sliding scale based on parent earnings and someone earning over 70k it drops to 4.5k so for most accommodation is just about covered or parents are paying up to 6k on average a year fill the gap

Then of you allow 60 a week for food, travel, going out thats 2.5k a year. Even for an average parent they are c4 to 5k a year in on a child going to uni.

Luckily the previous labour govt created child trust funds that I am sure will offset at least some of this.

Yes and said golden child(ren) can get a job to supplement their fun

Flounce · Saturday at 9:08 AM

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
Why would you be in favour of losing the benefit of a tax exemption?
And why would the rest of us be in favour of your taking advantage of such a tax exemption

At least, now you have exhausted the tax break (presumably your kids have long since left school)
we can salute your selflessly sticking up for all those impoverished parents that had been planning
to take advantage of the private school tax break, and whose hopes and dreams have now been crushed.
That's genuine altruism

As I pressed ”post” I smiled to myself and thought “I know who is probably going to come back with a sarcastic response” as you do on any subject where someone disagrees with you. Think about changing your MO Harry, it has become VERY predictable :wink:

Flounce · Saturday at 9:10 AM

WATFORD zero said:
Of course people should have the choice how they spend their money and I've never said any different.

But then expecting all taxpayers to subsidise them because it's not a charity but has charity 'status' ? Not for me.

Are people who send their kids to a private school basically paying twice for their kids education as they are not using the state system? Genuine question

WATFORD zero · Saturday at 9:11 AM

Flounce said:
Are people who send their kids to a private school basically paying twice for their kids education? Genuine question

Does the state train teachers who work in private schools ? Genuine answer :wink:

Flounce · Saturday at 9:13 AM

WATFORD zero said:
Does the state train teachers who work in private schools ? Genuine answer

They do but then they come off the payroll when they go to work at a private school? Do you feel as strongly about British students who study at English Universities and then go abroad in their careers?

There are a few on here who have done that :smile:

Bold Seagull · Saturday at 9:14 AM

Flounce said:
Are people who send their kids to a private school basically paying twice for their kids education as they are not using the state system? Genuine question

That’s like asking whether people who don’t have kids are paying once for kids that don’t exist.

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