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[News] Lucy Letby



jcdenton08

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Oct 17, 2008
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The notes were not diary entries. A diary is something written at the same time or shortly after the event. These are notes which her psychiatrist advised her to write after she had been charged - she was told to write down whatever she was feeling.
They weren’t the words of an innocent person. If you or I were accused of such heinous crimes, we’d be fighting tooth and nail to prove our innocence. I wouldn’t be writing incredibly suspicious things, I’d be writing about my anger and frustration at the injustice I was experiencing.

I’ve read all the Private Eye stuff, but sorry I still think she did it.
 






The Optimist

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Apr 6, 2008
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They weren’t the words of an innocent person. If you or I were accused of such heinous crimes, we’d be fighting tooth and nail to prove our innocence. I wouldn’t be writing incredibly suspicious things, I’d be writing about my anger and frustration at the injustice I was experiencing.

I’ve read all the Private Eye stuff, but sorry I still think she did it.
In the same page of notes she also wrote things like ‘I didn’t do anything wrong’.

I wouldn’t like to speculate as to what the pressures of being accused, arrested and charged with murdering multiple babies would do to someone’s mental state if they were actually innocent.

Is it just the notes that makes you think she still did it? And are you sure beyond reasonable doubt?
 


jcdenton08

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In the same page of notes she also wrote things like ‘I didn’t do anything wrong’.

I wouldn’t like to speculate as to what the pressures of being accused, arrested and charged with murdering multiple babies would do to someone’s mental state if they were actually innocent.

Is it just the notes that makes you think she still did it? And are you sure beyond reasonable doubt?
It’s not just the notes, no. I didn’t attend the trial and sit through the months of testimony, interview transcripts and reams of physical evidence and statistics. And I wasn’t on the jury, so I’m not in a position to judge anything “beyond reasonable doubt”, either her guilt or her innocence.

This argument about her reasons for writing “I am evil”, and “I killed them” (paraphrased, the wording was very similar) doesn’t add up though.

On the one hand, it’s being argued that she was under enormous stress and suffering mentally when she wrote the notes. Which begs the question as to whether she was of sound mind when working on the unit. If she was as mentally ill as being suggested in mitigation for the notes, then could she have been psychotic and committing murder while clinically insane.

We have a rule of law and if the appeal court concludes the convictions were unsafe, then fair play. That’s what is supposed to happen from a legal standpoint.

I’m just giving my opinion that I believe her to be guilty and therefore the jury’s decision correct based on everything I’ve read and heard.
 


Dorset Seagull

Once Dolphin, Now Seagull
It’s not just the notes, no. I didn’t attend the trial and sit through the months of testimony, interview transcripts and reams of physical evidence and statistics. And I wasn’t on the jury, so I’m not in a position to judge anything “beyond reasonable doubt”, either her guilt or her innocence.

This argument about her reasons for writing “I am evil”, and “I killed them” (paraphrased, the wording was very similar) doesn’t add up though.

On the one hand, it’s being argued that she was under enormous stress and suffering mentally when she wrote the notes. Which begs the question as to whether she was of sound mind when working on the unit. If she was as mentally ill as being suggested in mitigation for the notes, then could she have been psychotic and committing murder while clinically insane.

We have a rule of law and if the appeal court concludes the convictions were unsafe, then fair play. That’s what is supposed to happen from a legal standpoint.

I’m just giving my opinion that I believe her to be guilty and therefore the jury’s decision correct based on everything I’ve read and heard.
Perhaps in her mind she felt responsible for the deaths because she may have started to believe that she had been incompetent in some way with her care. After all everyone seemed to be saying that she caused the deaths. I think it's reasonable in that instance that she would use the words she did in those notes.
 




Bodian

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May 3, 2012
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Cumbria
Apologies, I meant the prosecution, not the courts, point still stands.

If you want something shorter to read than the Private Eye stuff (which is a time commitment) then try this article


One particular extract from the above article is (Dr Evans being the lead expert for the prosecution):

Months into the trial, damning criticisms of Evans were made by a senior judge, Lord Justice Jackson, in a different civil case. He dismissed Evans’s report as “worthless” and stated that Evans had breached his expert’s duty by deciding on an outcome he wanted, then “working out an explanation” to achieve it.

“Of greatest concern,” Jackson wrote in the decision, “Dr Evans makes no effort to provide a balanced opinion.” The judge said Evans had either not taken steps to inform himself about other medical experts’ conclusions, or he had disregarded them. “Either approach amounts to a breach of proper professional conduct.”
Yes - this bit concerns me. Experts are meant to be a bit better than coming out with 'something must have happened'.

1739885084832.png
 


The Optimist

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On the one hand, it’s being argued that she was under enormous stress and suffering mentally when she wrote the notes. Which begs the question as to whether she was of sound mind when working on the unit. If she was as mentally ill as being suggested in mitigation for the notes, then could she have been psychotic and committing murder while clinically insane.
That seems like a leap. I don’t think the suggestion is that she was mentally ill, just suffering with stress, and writing down her thoughts was a technique given to her by her therapist.

I think we’d need mental health professionals views on this.
 


dsr-burnley

Well-known member
Aug 15, 2014
2,805
It’s not just the notes, no. I didn’t attend the trial and sit through the months of testimony, interview transcripts and reams of physical evidence and statistics. And I wasn’t on the jury, so I’m not in a position to judge anything “beyond reasonable doubt”, either her guilt or her innocence.

This argument about her reasons for writing “I am evil”, and “I killed them” (paraphrased, the wording was very similar) doesn’t add up though.

On the one hand, it’s being argued that she was under enormous stress and suffering mentally when she wrote the notes. Which begs the question as to whether she was of sound mind when working on the unit. If she was as mentally ill as being suggested in mitigation for the notes, then could she have been psychotic and committing murder while clinically insane.

We have a rule of law and if the appeal court concludes the convictions were unsafe, then fair play. That’s what is supposed to happen from a legal standpoint.

I’m just giving my opinion that I believe her to be guilty and therefore the jury’s decision correct based on everything I’ve read and heard.
It has also been argued that being on trial for multiple murders is in itself a cause of enormous stress.

when someone on the same page of notes says that she is guilty and that she is innocent, her evidence can't be treated as conclusive (in either case).
 




mejonaNO12 aka riskit

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Dec 4, 2003
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England


jcdenton08

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I was specifically asked if I believed beyond reasonable doubt, a legal standard. To that end, no, I couldn’t render for certain her guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, because I didn’t see all the evidence the jury saw, hear the judge’s instructions and I wasn’t deliberating on the case. However, given the information available that I have read, it is my opinion that she is guilty.

It’s quite simple really. Here’s a more thorough explanation, though:

 


rippleman

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2011
5,120
I have never seen any explanation for why Letby's defence team failed to call expert witnesses to rebutt the prosecutions expert witnesses (one of whom was rebuked by another judge in another case as basically being crap). If her defence counsel was incompetent and failed to present her defence then surely that alone would be grounds for a mistrial? As we read in PE there are plenty of expert witnesses both medical and statistical who weren't called by the defence.

There's one other thing that baffles me although it doesn't necessarily relate directly to the case / verdict.

We have probably all seen the bodycams of the police knocking on Letby's door when they went to arrest her. The next video we have is the police bringing her out of her house and placing her in their car.

There is nothing in between (that I have seen). Are we to presume that the bodycams were turned off after they entered the house? We don't know how Letby reacted and / or what she said at the moment of arrest. Probably not relevant but it does seem rather odd.
 




The Optimist

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I was specifically asked if I believed beyond reasonable doubt, a legal standard. To that end, no, I couldn’t render for certain her guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, because I didn’t see all the evidence the jury saw, hear the judge’s instructions and I wasn’t deliberating on the case. However, given the information available that I have read, it is my opinion that she is guilty.

It’s quite simple really. Here’s a more thorough explanation, though:

In hindsight that wasn’t a great question from me (the beyond reasonable doubt) as clearly you wouldn’t have heard all of the evidence. I suppose a better question would be given the doubts about the expert witnesses etc do you think the conviction is safe or is there enough evidence to warrant a retrial?

It seems to me that there are enough doubts about the original case to warrant a retrial (if indeed that’s what would happen next).
 


TimWatt

Active member
Feb 13, 2011
172
Richmond
I have never seen any explanation for why Letby's defence team failed to call expert witnesses to rebutt the prosecutions expert witnesses (one of whom was rebuked by another judge in another case as basically being crap). If her defence counsel was incompetent and failed to present her defence then surely that alone would be grounds for a mistrial? As we read in PE there are plenty of expert witnesses both medical and statistical who weren't called by the defence.

This from Dr Phil Hammond’s PE column:

‘ONE hallmark of the justice system is that you don't have to offer any defence - expert or otherwise - and it is entirely down to the prosecution to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt. Letby and her barrister Ben Myers KC did not call their single expert witness to give evidence, secure in the knowledge that the evidence against her was largely circumstantial, and perhaps mindful that the prosecution had six expert witnesses and seven consultant paediatricians who were united in believing her to be guilty because it seemed the most plausible explanation for the spate of sudden and unexplained collapses.’

‘Myers did a very competent job challenging the prosecution witnesses. But the glaring weakness in the process was that the jury only heard expert evidence from one side.’

‘MD can make no judgement either way as to the guilt or innocence of Lucy Letby, but the way expert witnesses are used - or not used - in criminal trials with complex and uncertain science is simply not fit for purpose and risks miscarriages of justice. It should be mandatory for the jury to hear expert witnesses from both sides or - better still - it should be a duty of, say, the Royal Colleges and Royal Statistical Society to provide a team of the best, current expert witnesses on behalf of the court, not paid or employed by one side or the other. This is vital for justice to be done and to be seen being done.

In the current system, the jury may only hear a highly selective and curated version of the science from a single side, and experts will later disclose evidence they believe should have been heard in the court hearings after the verdict, which must be extremely distressing for the parents of the children who died, the friends and relatives of Lucy Letby and members of the jury who would have wanted the complete scientific picture.
 








dadams2k11

ID10T Error
Jun 24, 2011
5,068
Brighton
Not Guilty.

If you get the FULL shift chart, you can manipulate the deaths and pin it on any one of the nurse.



Edit: They even used Dr Shoo Lee paper from 1989 as evidence at the trial of skin discoloration as a sign of injecting air into the stomach. He as since updated the paper from 1989, in December last year. He wasnt even asked to be a witness as the writer of the paper at the trial.

Now Dr Shoo Lee as got an independent team of world leading neonatal experts together and done their own research and concluded the babies were not murdered.
 
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jcdenton08

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When AI juries become the way forward it will do away with
"I have no doubt about her guilt. But I guess it's never with 100% certainty."
That was what I was replying to.
AI juries will never become the way forward. AI doesn’t think, it doesn’t consider nuance. It will never happen.
 


DavidinSouthampton

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Jan 3, 2012
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I'm not convinced. With our system, we have two biased barristers arguing their case, a neutral judge keeping them to the rules, and a neutral jury making the decision. With the French system, the judge is biased by definition because it was his decision to bring the case to court, and he sits with the jury to influence their decisions.

Letby's problem was that her defence made a mess of things. Specifically in respect of the statistics and the medical evidence.
You possibly know more about the French system than I do!
the judge may be biased in the final trial, as you point out, but hopefully the basis of being a judge is being neutral and objective throughout, both in the initial process and then subsequently in the trial.
I did jury service a few years ago in Winchester on a big 6 week drugs trial with 6 defendants. The judge throughout was brilliant. But one of the defendants quite clearly had nothing to do with it all - an HGV driver who just happened to be innocently driving one of the Lorries involved - that his case was dismissed after about 4 days. That wouldn’t have happened, I think, under the French System.
 


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