[Albion] Tactical analysis of Albion's win over Man Utd

lost in london · 2025-01-21T12:15:57+0000

I'm not a stupid person, and I really want to understand these tactical write ups, but it's like reading tax / finance to my brain, just doesn't make sense.

"When facing high pressing, left-back Estupiñán moved asymmetrically into the left half-space behind United’s first pressing block. This movement utilized the moment when Amad stepped out to press one of Brighton’s center-backs after bypassing Zirkzee."

What?

There is no chance whatsoever Estupinian was told to do that - 'Hey, Pervis, remember then you've got to move asymmetrically into the left half-space and not, in any circumstances, symmetrically. Don't let me down son, it's an asymmetrical movement. And don't forget to use the moment when Amad bypasses Zirkzee to press a centre back.'

Pervis was told to do something much simpler, why can't these analysts put it into normal language for us? I don't doubt Hurzeler had a tactical plan, and Pervis had instructions, I'm just not convinced these armchair analysts are all that.

Guinness Boy · 2025-01-21T12:18:47+0000

WATFORD zero said:
I don't think there is a briefer explanation as it is quite complicated and must take a long time on the training ground, and a hell of a lot of thought from the players. Certainly a few months for a squad to be happy with. It could explain why so many of us are struggling to see 'the plan' though.

Indeed. It looks like we have been learning a style, rather than not having one. There is an element of pragmatism in there too though. The high line we adopted at Everton, for example, is not the same now, something Fab said he tweaked after Chelsea away. At Newcastle we played a more classic soak up pressure and counter.

dazzer6666 · 2025-01-21T12:19:56+0000

lost in london said:
I'm not a stupid person, and I really want to understand these tactical write ups, but it's like reading tax / finance to my brain, just doesn't make sense.

"When facing high pressing, left-back Estupiñán moved asymmetrically into the left half-space behind United’s first pressing block. This movement utilized the moment when Amad stepped out to press one of Brighton’s center-backs after bypassing Zirkzee."

What?

There is no chance whatsoever Estupinian was told to do that - 'Hey, Pervis, remember then you've got to move asymmetrically into the left half-space and not, in any circumstances, symmetrically. Don't let me down son, it's an asymmetrical movement. And don't forget to use the moment when Amad bypasses Zirkzee to press a centre back.'

Pervis was told to do something much simpler, why can't these analysts put it into normal language for us? I don't doubt Hurzeler had a tactical plan, and Pervis had instructions, I'm just not convinced these armchair analysts are all that.

No different than any other walk of life though is it………..try listening to a project manager explaining a task to a client, then explaining it to the guy who has to actually do the simple piece of work :lolol:

‘We’ve already identified, using our Six Sigma Blackbelt methodology, a sprint to a quick win relating to certain logistics involving critical hardware that can be implemented without undue impact on day to day working practices and at minimal cost and with rapid deployment’

’You’re moving the computer to another desk’

Guinness Boy · 2025-01-21T12:21:37+0000

dazzer6666 said:
No different than any other walk of life though is it………..try listening to a project manager explaining a task to a client, then explaining it to the guy who has to actually do the simple piece of work

It's quite simple once you've turned the dial and leaned in to it. Just as long as you've reached out to the right people.

Han Solo · 2025-01-21T12:29:33+0000

Machiavelli said:
Thanks for this. It appears that FH does use relationism. Am I right in highlighting the two diagrams on 24 and 36mins about the core of relationism -- see (my) post 11?

Yes, thats the type of asymmetry that will often be seen in teams playing according to this philosophy.

The term "relationism" is a new one in football and indeed coined by Jonathan Wilson (unless he was quoting Diniz) I think, but the foundations is the dynamic Total Football that never saw much light in England and was rather quickly forgotten and replaced by evermore system-dependent ways of playing.

Roberto Martinez Swansea was the first team in Britain to play "Relationism"/"Total Football 2.0". Roberto Martinez is a Cruyffian manager and crushed the idea that "you can't play like that in the EFL". The plentiful Brighton-Swansea interactions over the Bloom years is very far from a coincidence. Almost anyone managing Swansea will be linked to us in the future. Likewise they will often bring coaches or players from us.

Now there's a generation of managers who want to take this even further and make it even more dynamic. But it takes balls to give up power and let the players decide things on the pitch. There still aren't many managers who dare to do it. In the PL it is really only Ange (managing a team where players don't want to have relations with each other) and us doing it to any larger extent. Most other teams are more or less glued to a manual/playbook.

Rdodge30 · 2025-01-21T12:36:27+0000

WATFORD zero said:
You know that you can watch all Albion games on t'internet ?

sussex_guy2k2 said:
It’s not the same, with all due respect, even overlooking the illegality of it.

For me personally, years of watching football from the same camera angle has defined where I sit on the few occasions I can get to the Amex. Everything feels out of kilter if I’m not near the half way line in the west stand. As an Albion+ member I buy tickets on the exchange and that’s where I head to.

I agree that the camera follows the ball and you don’t see the expansion in play on tv… but for me personally I would choose tv over the view from the North or South as I find it very hard to follow looking down the length of the pitch.

Guinness Boy · 2025-01-21T12:40:41+0000

Han Solo said:
Yes, thats the type of asymmetry that will often be seen in teams playing according to this philosophy.

The term "relationism" is a new one in football and indeed coined by Jonathan Wilson (unless he was quoting Diniz) I think, but the foundations is the dynamic Total Football that never saw much light in England and was rather quickly forgotten and replaced by evermore system-dependent ways of playing.

Roberto Martinez Swansea was the first team in Britain to play "Relationism"/"Total Football 2.0". Roberto Martinez is a Cruyffian manager and crushed the idea that "you can't play like that in the EFL". The plentiful Brighton-Swansea interactions over the Bloom years is very far from a coincidence. Almost anyone managing Swansea will be linked to us in the future. Likewise they will often bring coaches or players from us.

Now there's a generation of managers who want to take this even further and make it even more dynamic. But it takes balls to give up power and let the players decide things on the pitch. There still aren't many managers who dare to do it. In the PL it is really only Ange (managing a team where players don't want to have relations with each other) and us doing it to any larger extent. Most other teams are more or less glued to a manual/playbook.

I guarantee that Russell Martin won't, but otherwise good post :thumbsup:

.

Han Solo · 2025-01-21T13:08:01+0000

Nobby Cybergoat said:
To take an example completely at random

Hah no. But there's not a lot of examples out there and we've had two of them managing our club, because we don't just do shit at random.

We want to play dynamic total football.

Tony Bloom appointments:

Gus Poyet. Good friend with Roberto Martinez and was labelled his most likely replacement in both Swansea and Wigan. Jordi Cruyff (son of Johan and sporting director here and there over the years) has tried to sign him several times to his clubs.

Oscar Garcia. Coached and schooled by Johan Cruijff at FC Barcelona and his gig before ours was as manager for Maccabi where Jordi was DoF.

Sami Hyypiä. His main inspiration: his manager from Willem II (and former Ajax youth manager), "Crazy Co" Adriaanse who was always a Cruiffian however much he wanted to be a Gaalian.

Chris Hughton. Eeees complicated but this appointment was likely more about solving a crisis than some sort of long term visionary plan, even though it worked out well.

Graham Potter. Signed by Östersund after Graeme Jones (Roberto Martinez assistant at Swansea) advicing Östersund to sign him. Later was poached by Swansea and rapdily ended up with us.

Roberto De Zerbi. By Italian standards a fluid and flexible manager but not a Cruijffian... and also not suited for our club in the long run.

Hurz. Not read or heard enough about him yet to know his inspirational sources but seems to fit in with the dynamic Total Football/Relations model extremely well.

There are patterns in how we recruit players and managers, hence why a lot of times it will be perfectly logical to say two Brighton managers have similar ideas. We want Cruyffian football.

Guinness Boy · 2025-01-21T13:31:04+0000

Han Solo said:
Hah no. But there's not a lot of examples out there and we've had two of them managing our club, because we don't just do shit at random.

We want to play dynamic total football.

Tony Bloom appointments:

Gus Poyet. Good friend with Roberto Martinez and was labelled his most likely replacement in both Swansea and Wigan. Jordi Cruyff (son of Johan and sporting director here and there over the years) has tried to sign him several times to his clubs.

Oscar Garcia. Coached and schooled by Johan Cruijff at FC Barcelona and his gig before ours was as manager for Maccabi where Jordi was DoF.

Sami Hyypiä. His main inspiration: his manager from Willem II (and former Ajax youth manager), "Crazy Co" Adriaanse who was always a Cruiffian however much he wanted to be a Gaalian.

Chris Hughton. Eeees complicated but this appointment was likely more about solving a crisis than some sort of long term visionary plan, even though it worked out well.

Graham Potter. Signed by Östersund after Graeme Jones (Roberto Martinez assistant at Swansea) advicing Östersund to sign him. Later was poached by Swansea and rapdily ended up with us.

Roberto De Zerbi. By Italian standards a fluid and flexible manager but not a Cruijffian... and also not suited for our club in the long run.

Hurz. Not read or heard enough about him yet to know his inspirational sources but seems to fit in with the dynamic Total Football/Relations model extremely well.

There are patterns in how we recruit players and managers, hence why a lot of times it will be perfectly logical to say two Brighton managers have similar ideas. We want Cruyffian football.

Not disputing any of this, but the cynic in me suggests that what we really want are players who can play in different positions or formations and who are comfortable on the ball / have good technique. And that's because we can sell them for a lot more money if they work out. Hughton was very pragmatic with the team he inherited from Sami in order to keep us up but played some lovely stuff for the next two seasons in the Championship. Attacking and direct for sure but with a lot of emphasis on partnerships and diagonal balls out from Dunk. He eventually reverted to pragmatism in the Premier League but that was undoubtedly his death knell. Even though he kept us up it was very, very close. And by then the value of our playing assets had severely diminished. All we had was a squad on Premier League wages who'd spent the best part of six months in a defensive shape with very little possession. Hughts could still stick the odd bit of Cruyffian football out there though - look at Izquierdo's goal at Stoke.

It's all about business really (which is fine as it keeps the club alive and relatively successful)

warmleyseagull · 2025-01-21T13:53:22+0000

dazzer6666 said:
In a nutshell why we look so much better when Danny plays..........

I was just about to make same point, adding that the 8 game winless run coincided with no Danny...

Would more tactically aware posters than me agree that the difficult of absorbing relationism may also explain why our new signings are not quite proving to be the absolute business we hoped (+ injuries, obviously)? Exception perhaps Ferdi who gives impression of being smart and very able when not on crutches.

sussex_guy2k2 · 2025-01-21T13:59:46+0000

Rdodge30 said:
For me personally, years of watching football from the same camera angle has defined where I sit on the few occasions I can get to the Amex. Everything feels out of kilter if I’m not near the half way line in the west stand. As an Albion+ member I buy tickets on the exchange and that’s where I head to.

I agree that the camera follows the ball and you don’t see the expansion in play on tv… but for me personally I would choose tv over the view from the North or South as I find it very hard to follow looking down the length of the pitch.

I’m in the west upper now and I totally agree. You see everything. You see every change of formation, how players shift, how players interchange, how other react to other interchanging.

I sat in the North for years and you simply can’t see what’s going on in the same detail.

And TV is fine, but again, you can’t really see the things I’ve outlined above. Tactically it simply doesn’t allow you to understand the minute details in passages of play.

Anyway, genuinely I hope we’re starting to come together as a coherent unit, and I hope to see that play out at home against Everton. The last couple of home games have been generally good performances, where I could see us moving in the right direction, but based on what I have seen, live at games, I won’t be jumping on the bandwagon fully just yet.

sussex_guy2k2 · 2025-01-21T14:04:02+0000

lost in london said:
I'm not a stupid person, and I really want to understand these tactical write ups, but it's like reading tax / finance to my brain, just doesn't make sense.

"When facing high pressing, left-back Estupiñán moved asymmetrically into the left half-space behind United’s first pressing block. This movement utilized the moment when Amad stepped out to press one of Brighton’s center-backs after bypassing Zirkzee."

What?

There is no chance whatsoever Estupinian was told to do that - 'Hey, Pervis, remember then you've got to move asymmetrically into the left half-space and not, in any circumstances, symmetrically. Don't let me down son, it's an asymmetrical movement. And don't forget to use the moment when Amad bypasses Zirkzee to press a centre back.'

Pervis was told to do something much simpler, why can't these analysts put it into normal language for us? I don't doubt Hurzeler had a tactical plan, and Pervis had instructions, I'm just not convinced these armchair analysts are all that.

I totally get what you’re saying about the language used, but otherwise totally disagree on everything else you’ve said. You don’t think players at Premier League level, where 1 or 2% can be the difference, are working on these finer details such as patterns of play?

There’s tons and tons of material from when Guardiola was at Barcelona about how he did drills with each of his players about where they could move, when they could move, who was setting the press, who should move to where when the press was set, etc etc. And he’s just one example - RDZ, Potter, even Hughton, clearly had such things ingrained into their players.

Guinness Boy · 2025-01-21T14:07:52+0000

sussex_guy2k2 said:
I’m in the west upper now and I totally agree. You see everything. You see every change of formation, how players shift, how players interchange, how other react to other interchanging.

I sat in the North for years and you simply can’t see what’s going on in the same detail.

And TV is fine, but again, you can’t really see the things I’ve outlined above. Tactically it simply doesn’t allow you to understand the minute details in passages of play.

Anyway, genuinely I hope we’re starting to come together as a coherent unit, and I hope to see that play out at home against Everton. The last couple of home games have been generally good performances, where I could see us moving in the right direction, but based on what I have seen, live at games, I won’t be jumping on the bandwagon fully just yet.

Been in the West Upper since the stadium opened and you can indeed. It can be very frustrating as you'll sometimes see that a pass or run is on and we just don't make it - probably because the player at pitch level just can't see it.

Rdodge30 · 2025-01-21T14:08:15+0000

sussex_guy2k2 said:
I’m in the west upper now and I totally agree. You see everything. You see every change of formation, how players shift, how players interchange, how other react to other interchanging.

I sat in the North for years and you simply can’t see what’s going on in the same detail.

And TV is fine, but again, you can’t really see the things I’ve outlined above. Tactically it simply doesn’t allow you to understand the minute details in passages of play.

Anyway, genuinely I hope we’re starting to come together as a coherent unit, and I hope to see that play out at home against Everton. The last couple of home games have been generally good performances, where I could see us moving in the right direction, but based on what I have seen, live at games, I won’t be jumping on the bandwagon fully just yet.

It was pretty good at United to be fair… early season I was constantly describing us as disjointed- not connected in anyway even when we were winning. It didn’t feel like that on Sunday. All be it I was only watching on tv. We were a good unit

I don’t think I could watch from the East stand with the North on my right !!

My favourite seats when available are the single row outside the mayo lounge

sussex_guy2k2 · 2025-01-21T14:12:48+0000

Rdodge30 said:
It was pretty good at United to be fair… early season I was constantly describing us as disjointed- not connected in anyway even when we were winning. It didn’t feel like that on Sunday. All be it I was only watching on tv. We were a good unit

I don’t think I could watch from the East stand with the North on my right !!

My favourite seats when available are the single row outside the mayo lounge

That’s good to hear. I’m really hopeful this starts to translate into performances and results at home. Maybe we just needed a bit more confidence that the Norwich win brought.

I tried the East stand last year for a couple of games and struggled, but everyone’s different. The West Upper has a perfect balance for watching football for me.

Bry Nylon · 2025-01-21T14:30:24+0000

Guinness Boy said:
It's quite simple once you've turned the dial and leaned in to it. Just as long as you've reached out to the right people.

And don't forget to "stay curious"

FFS :shootself

oldboyroy · 2025-01-21T14:37:31+0000

Although interesting I don't care what tactics we play as long as we control the game, win the game, play attacking football be brilliant in defence and we win the league!

lost in london · 2025-01-21T14:55:41+0000

sussex_guy2k2 said:
I totally get what you’re saying about the language used, but otherwise totally disagree on everything else you’ve said. You don’t think players at Premier League level, where 1 or 2% can be the difference, are working on these finer details such as patterns of play?

There’s tons and tons of material from when Guardiola was at Barcelona about how he did drills with each of his players about where they could move, when they could move, who was setting the press, who should move to where when the press was set, etc etc. And he’s just one example - RDZ, Potter, even Hughton, clearly had such things ingrained into their players.

I literally said that there will be patterns of play "I don't doubt Hurzeler had a tactical plan, and Pervis had instructions"

My point is that I think a lot of the analysts over complicate things deliberately, and are poor at explaining the tactics. Maybe everyone is cleverer than me, but I struggle to believe there are many supporters that read the article linked to in the first post and readily understand the points being made. I think it is a lot simpler than they make it out to be (hence why I made the point about there being no way that Hurzeler explains tactics in the same way these analysts do).

Wardy's twin · 2025-01-21T16:05:04+0000

A lot of words, but more simply put a great ball over the top to skillful winger undoes united, followed by two also quick moving goals rather than trying to walk it into the net and beating 10 defenders on the way.

thedonkeycentrehalf · 2025-01-21T16:47:55+0000

Guinness Boy said:
Been in the West Upper since the stadium opened and you can indeed. It can be very frustrating as you'll sometimes see that a pass or run is on and we just don't make it - probably because the player at pitch level just can't see it.

If only some of the 'experts' who sit around me in the WSU had such a balanced view. Many don't seem to understand that the pass they can see from on high would require the player on the pitch to have x-ray vision to see through the cluster of players between the man in possession and the 'easy' ball they think is on.

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[Albion] Tactical analysis of Albion's win over Man Utd

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