[Albion] Was forcing Sanchez out the worst decision our club has made in years?

Han Solo · 2025-01-21T00:30:23+0000

AstroSloth said:
What blooper did Verbruggen have?

We've also already covered the fact that save percentage isn't a good measure for goalkeepers.

Not a bad one either. Clubs generally value goalkeepers who saves shots. Thats one of the main reasons why Robert Sanchez is the starting goalie in a top 4 team.

Kalimantan Gull said:
You can find the highlights of the ManU game somewhere.

Sels, Sanchez, Kepa, Allison, Flekken, Pope, Raya, Pickford are the keepers with a save percentage >70% this season, looks a pretty spot on metric for keeper quality this season.

But what metric would you prefer we look at?

I'm guessing he'd like a metric showing the superiority of Jason Steele, so maybe "short passes completed".

Or his low PSxG (difficulty of the opponents shot), despite it being a normal consequence of a goalkeeper who collects more crosses and rushes out of the penalty box more than everyone else. It looks funny the one in ten times it doesn't work and it prevents a 1on1 the other 9 times.

Sanchez collects crosses and picks up opponents through balls so they don't get many good opportunities, resulting in his low PSxG, as is usually the case for proactive keepers compared to line goalies.

keaton · 2025-01-21T07:20:08+0000

I'm not sure what metric you'd call it but the Guardian match report describes him as "erratic" and an "accident waiting to happen" and the top Football365 article is about him needing to be dropped suggests we didn't make the wrong decision.

Terry Butcher Tribute Act · 2025-01-21T07:37:17+0000

Verbruggen is 5 years younger than Sanchez, who we already made good money on. You know, I think we'll be alright.

darkwolf666 · 2025-01-21T07:37:34+0000

Kalimantan Gull said:
Fair enough for him to provide one the day after Verbruggen added one to his.

Sanchez added a few more saves as well. Currently second best save percentage in the Premier League, behind Sels, if you were wondering. Verbruggen 15th.

David James was a good shot stopper, still managed to earn the nickname “Calamity” though…

Simster · 2025-01-21T07:45:42+0000

I'm torn on Sanchez. His semi regular bloopers are hugely entertaining now that we've moved him on, but he was a good keeper for us over all - Palace away excepted. I do find it hilarious that the chavs - fans brought up on a diet of Petr Cech and Thibaut Courtois - are now having to watch Sanchez throw the ball into his own net on a semi regular basis.

I actually suspect we'd have been less inclined to sell him for the £25m we got for him if he hadn't been such a dick - always turning up late for training, lacking humility (other players know when to be seen in their expensive motors and bling, no such filter on Sanchez apparently) etc.

GT49er · 2025-01-21T09:15:44+0000

darkwolf666 said:
David James was a good shot stopper, still managed to earn the nickname “Calamity” though…

...... and was rightly England's no.1 for several years. It was strange too, wasn't it, in the days when we couldn't score for toffee, the opposition always seemed to come to the Amex with a god shot-stopper who played the game of his life to make sure we didn't. It's almost as if other clubs knew something about goalkeepers..............

Ali_rrr · 2025-01-21T09:16:54+0000

Whoislloydy said:
The pass to Ayari leading to the penalty. Not sure why he attempted that ball.

Ayari points for the ball to be played into this space where he would pass it into Dunk as per our usual build up play. However, Ayari hasn't looked over his shoulder.

You could argue here that Verbruggen could go to Baleba who pushes off Mainoo just after. But when he plays the ball Ayari stops and Diallo notices and nips in. Not one time from the half way line does Ayari check his shoulder to see if Diallo is behind him and because he opts to try and receive it into his feet rather than go to the ball, Diallo is able to use his momentum to take the ball.

Unfortunately, with our style and how we build up we will concede goals like this. Especially when players are switched off. Fortunately, Ayari more than redeemed himself throughout the game.

Guinness Boy · 2025-01-21T09:21:02+0000

Kalimantan Gull said:
Fair enough for him to provide one the day after Verbruggen added one to his.

Sanchez added a few more saves as well. Currently second best save percentage in the Premier League, behind Sels, if you were wondering. Verbruggen 15th.

"The error was keeper Sanchez's fourth that has led to a goal this season - only Ipswich's Arijanet Muric (five) has made more in the Premier League - and will lead to more questions around his selection with just one home clean sheet this campaign."

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Nobby Cybergoat · 2025-01-21T09:26:15+0000

Chelsea will replace Sanchez at the first opportunity. Most likely he'll hang around for there for the next couple of years, appearing in the league cup and so on before getting a move to a lower PL club, where he'll do OK, but his "i'm too big a star to be here, but oops i've dropped another regulation cross straight to a striker" attitude will start to piss everybody off. Maybe then a spell abroad, no higher than mid table anywhere.

Basically he'll be a middling goalie in a top league for the rest of his career. And there's nothing to be ashamed of there, but I doubt he'll ever come to accept that

Kalimantan Gull · 2025-01-21T09:32:43+0000

Ali_rrr said:
View attachment 195481

Ayari points for the ball to be played into this space where he would pass it into Dunk as per our usual build up play. However, Ayari hasn't looked over his shoulder.

View attachment 195482

You could argue here that Verbruggen could go to Baleba who pushes off Mainoo just after. But when he plays the ball Ayari stops and Diallo notices and nips in. Not one time from the half way line does Ayari check his shoulder to see if Diallo is behind him and because he opts to try and receive it into his feet rather than go to the ball, Diallo is able to use his momentum to take the ball.

View attachment 195483

Unfortunately, with our style and how we build up we will concede goals like this. Especially when players are switched off. Fortunately, Ayari more than redeemed himself throughout the game.

Ayari pointed, and was ready for it, but Bart didn't play the ball straight away, he hesitated, looked around, and only then played the ball when the opportunity for the pass had gone. Ayari was surprised to get it so late, it wasn't his fault

Nobby Cybergoat · 2025-01-21T09:35:39+0000

Ali_rrr said:
View attachment 195481

Ayari points for the ball to be played into this space where he would pass it into Dunk as per our usual build up play. However, Ayari hasn't looked over his shoulder.

View attachment 195482

You could argue here that Verbruggen could go to Baleba who pushes off Mainoo just after. But when he plays the ball Ayari stops and Diallo notices and nips in. Not one time from the half way line does Ayari check his shoulder to see if Diallo is behind him and because he opts to try and receive it into his feet rather than go to the ball, Diallo is able to use his momentum to take the ball.

View attachment 195483

Unfortunately, with our style and how we build up we will concede goals like this. Especially when players are switched off. Fortunately, Ayari more than redeemed himself throughout the game.

I'm glad someone posted these photos. It shows the traps Utd set for us, to try and make the ball out wide as difficult as possible (Fulham did this effectively as well).

What I don't understand is why we persist with the mid range straight pass from goalie to midfield. It's massively risky. In this case Ayari doesn't do well enough yes, but we have to say at this stage in Verbruggen's development, he isn't skilled enough to play this pass and it keeps costing us.

The option I like the idea of .... and no .... i'm not Dave Bassett or Bobby Gould in disguise .... is why do we never try a longer straight chip over the midfield to Welbeck or Pedro. With their midfield pushing up, there's plenty of space for the keeper to hit. Even more intriguing, if they want to high press us why not bang it up the channels for Mitoma or Minteh to get them turned.

I should be clear i'm not talking about doing this all the time, but if the oppo know we have this in our locker, it makes them think twice before high pressing us every time Bart is in possession

Ali_rrr · 2025-01-21T09:36:50+0000

Kalimantan Gull said:
Ayari pointed, and was ready for it, but Bart didn't play the ball straight away, he hesitated, looked around, and only then played the ball when the opportunity for the pass had gone. Ayari was surprised to get it so late, it wasn't his fault

Ayari hasn't looked over his shoulder. He doesn't know Diallo is there.

If Verbruggen puts that ball where Ayari is pointing Ugarte will sweep it up or make the pass to Dunk impossible. Diallo is counting on the fact that Ayari doesn't know he's there and Ayari stops when he thinks the ball will come to him.

Nobby Cybergoat · 2025-01-21T09:37:10+0000

Kalimantan Gull said:
Ayari pointed, and was ready for it, but Bart didn't play the ball straight away, he hesitated, looked around, and only then played the ball when the opportunity for the pass had gone. Ayari was surprised to get it so late, it wasn't his fault

Ayari should have carried on his backwards run though and made a better fist of holding the Utd player off. I don't think he covered himself in glory there. But yeh in my view the pass was the wrong choice

Ali_rrr · 2025-01-21T09:40:00+0000

Nobby Cybergoat said:
I'm glad someone posted these photos. It shows the traps Utd set for us, to try and make the ball out wide as difficult as possible (Fulham did this effectively as well).

What I don't understand is why we persist with the mid range straight pass from goalie to midfield. It's massively risky. In this case Ayari doesn't do well enough yes, but we have to say at this stage in Verbruggen's development, he isn't skilled enough to play this pass and it keeps costing us.

The option I like the idea of .... and no .... i'm not Dave Bassett or Bobby Gould in disguise .... is why do we never try a longer straight chip over the midfield to Welbeck or Pedro. With their midfield pushing up, there's plenty of space for the keeper to hit. Even more intriguing, if they want to high press us why not bang it up the channels for Mitoma or Minteh to get them turned.

I should be clear i'm not talking about doing this all the time, but if the oppo know we have this in our locker, it makes them think twice before high pressing us every time Bart is in possession

This is a fair point and one I agree with, I guess it's risk v. reward. With Caicedo this worked almost every time, Ayari isn't at that stage of development yet nor is anyone else at Caicedo's level at the moment in receiving that pass.

We saw Steele and Mitoma doing the over the top against Brentford and it worked. Verbruggen is still 22 and I suppose isn't as confident with his feet to have played it out wide to a free Veltman.

WATFORD zero · 2025-01-21T09:40:44+0000

Nobby Cybergoat said:
I'm glad someone posted these photos. It shows the traps Utd set for us, to try and make the ball out wide as difficult as possible (Fulham did this effectively as well).

What I don't understand is why we persist with the mid range straight pass from goalie to midfield. It's massively risky. In this case Ayari doesn't do well enough yes, but we have to say at this stage in Verbruggen's development, he isn't skilled enough to play this pass and it keeps costing us.

The option I like the idea of .... and no .... i'm not Dave Bassett or Bobby Gould in disguise .... is why do we never try a longer straight chip over the midfield to Welbeck or Pedro. With their midfield pushing up, there's plenty of space for the keeper to hit. Even more intriguing, if they want to high press us why not bang it up the channels for Mitoma or Minteh to get them turned.

I should be clear i'm not talking about doing this all the time, but if the oppo know we have this in our locker, it makes them think twice before high pressing us every time Bart is in possession

The only 'chip' I ever see our keepers make is the occasional one out to the fullback. I'm guessing that trying this into a striker in the middle is considered even higher risk than the mid range straight pass. When the midfielder is aware they are under pressure the normally come to the ball and ping a one touch pass. For whatever reason against United, Ayari didn't seem to be aware how close the United player was :shrug:

Swegulls · 2025-01-21T09:47:26+0000

Thing is Ayari almost always point with his arm. That doesn’t mean you have to pass him, especially when you see the whole situation, as Bart did here. I think Bart should just hoofed it, it’s okej to do that sometimes.

Nobby Cybergoat · 2025-01-21T09:48:08+0000

Ali_rrr said:
This is a fair point and one I agree with, I guess it's risk v. reward. With Caicedo this worked almost every time, Ayari isn't at that stage of development yet nor is anyone else at Caicedo's level at the moment in receiving that pass.

We saw Steele and Mitoma doing the over the top against Brentford and it worked. Verbruggen is still 22 and I suppose isn't as confident with his feet to have played it out wide to a free Veltman.

Yeh and I guess the risk is the pass out to Veltman gets under hit. I think the positioning of the Utd forward near Van Hecke is trying to tempt him into this

Nobby Cybergoat · 2025-01-21T09:51:25+0000

WATFORD zero said:
The only 'chip' I ever see our keepers make is the occasional one out to the fullback. I'm guessing that trying this into a striker in the middle is considered even higher risk than the mid range straight pass. When the midfielder is aware they are under pressure the normally come to the ball and ping a one touch pass. For whatever reason against United, Ayari didn't seem to be aware how close the United player was

Or it could be more than a chip. A conventional long high ball aimed at Welbeck. We've got 4 forwards up there. Just occasionally is what i'm saying. I see Verbruggen as way too ponderous and predictable for the short and mid range game. Steele on the other hand is very good at it

JBizzle · 2025-01-21T09:56:35+0000

Nobby Cybergoat said:
Chelsea will replace Sanchez at the first opportunity. Most likely he'll hang around for there for the next couple of years, appearing in the league cup and so on before getting a move to a lower PL club, where he'll do OK, but his "i'm too big a star to be here, but oops i've dropped another regulation cross straight to a striker" attitude will start to piss everybody off. Maybe then a spell abroad, no higher than mid table anywhere.

Basically he'll be a middling goalie in a top league for the rest of his career. And there's nothing to be ashamed of there, but I doubt he'll ever come to accept that

I view him in much the same way as Aaron Ramsdale. A good, solid, mid-to lower end goalkeeper who got promoted too high in the league where their lack of concentration isn't tolerated.

In terms of replacing Sanchez, they already have EIGHT first-team goalkeepers on their books, Sanchez, Djordje Petrovic, Mike Penders, Kepa Arrizabalaga, Marcus Bettinelli, Lucas Bergstrom, Eddie Beach and Filip Jorgensen. They spent £40 on GKs in the summer

Simster · 2025-01-21T10:19:38+0000

Kalimantan Gull said:
Ayari pointed, and was ready for it, but Bart didn't play the ball straight away, he hesitated, looked around, and only then played the ball when the opportunity for the pass had gone. Ayari was surprised to get it so late, it wasn't his fault

Verbruggen, Ayari and Baleba all contributed to that goal being conceded.

Comparing Verbruggen's contribution to that of Sanchez where his clown antics meant he dropped the ball rather than the easy decision of just putting his fist through it makes me feel you have an agenda against Verbruggen. He was nowhere near as culpable as the error Sanchez made.

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