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[Albion] Tactical analysis of Albion's win over Man Utd



Bozza

Bozza

You can change this
Helpful Moderator
Jul 4, 2003
57,788
Back in Sussex
Hürzeler’s team, on the other hand, once again played highly attractive possession football. Frequent positional rotations, shifts in formations, overloads, and space-creating runs make Brighton’s possession game very enjoyable to watch. For the opponent, these constant shifts in zones over an extended period are incredibly difficult to defend. It is very likely that we will see more teams adopting similar principles in possession in the future.

spielverlagerung.com

Pressing Impossible: Amorim Loses to Hürzeler – MH

Rúben Amorim's Manchester United faced Hürzeler's Brighton on Matchday 22. While Manchester United focused on creating a pressing system that was as difficult as possible to bypass, Brighton once again showcased their incredibly challenging vertical play. You can find the tactical analysis of...
spielverlagerung.com spielverlagerung.com
 




Green Cross Code Man

Green Cross Code Man

Wunt be druv
Mar 30, 2006
20,919
Eastbourne
Bozza said:
Hürzeler’s team, on the other hand, once again played highly attractive possession football. Frequent positional rotations, shifts in formations, overloads, and space-creating runs make Brighton’s possession game very enjoyable to watch. For the opponent, these constant shifts in zones over an extended period are incredibly difficult to defend. It is very likely that we will see more teams adopting similar principles in possession in the future.

spielverlagerung.com

Pressing Impossible: Amorim Loses to Hürzeler – MH

Rúben Amorim's Manchester United faced Hürzeler's Brighton on Matchday 22. While Manchester United focused on creating a pressing system that was as difficult as possible to bypass, Brighton once again showcased their incredibly challenging vertical play. You can find the tactical analysis of...
spielverlagerung.com spielverlagerung.com
Click to expand...
But apparently, and those voices are now strangely silent, Hurzeler and his team don't have a 'plan' or style. Something that is confounded by what we saw on Sunday and by articles such as this.
 




albionalba

albionalba

Football with optimism
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Aug 31, 2023
328
sadly in Scotland
Interesting reading thanks for posting. It would be helpful to see that level of tactical analysis of some of our December fails. There's a lot there about manure's weaknesses and failure to keep adapting. Essentially what is going wrong when our 'constant shift in zones over an extended period' that is lauded in the article, fails? Is it partly as @HeaviestTed says about injuries / lack of consistent team?
 


Couldn't Be Hyypia

Couldn't Be Hyypia

We've come a long long way together
NSC Patron
Nov 12, 2006
16,935
Near Dorchester, Dorset
Bozza said:
Hürzeler’s team, on the other hand, once again played highly attractive possession football. Frequent positional rotations, shifts in formations, overloads, and space-creating runs make Brighton’s possession game very enjoyable to watch. For the opponent, these constant shifts in zones over an extended period are incredibly difficult to defend. It is very likely that we will see more teams adopting similar principles in possession in the future.

spielverlagerung.com

Pressing Impossible: Amorim Loses to Hürzeler – MH

Rúben Amorim's Manchester United faced Hürzeler's Brighton on Matchday 22. While Manchester United focused on creating a pressing system that was as difficult as possible to bypass, Brighton once again showcased their incredibly challenging vertical play. You can find the tactical analysis of...
spielverlagerung.com spielverlagerung.com
Click to expand...
Wow. That was an interesting analysis.

For the tl:dr crowd, who still reserve the right to bleat on about how Brighton lack a formation, this might be useful:

Brighton operated flexibly from a variety of shapes, such as 4-2-4, 3-1-4-2, 2-3-2-3, and more. This flexibility makes Brighton’s possession game almost impossible to define through formations alone.
 




Bakero

Bakero

Languidly clinical
Oct 9, 2010
15,127
Almería
Green Cross Code Man said:
But apparently, and those voices are now strangely silent, Hurzeler and his team don't have a 'plan' or style. Something that is confounded by what we saw on Sunday and by articles such as this.
Click to expand...

The flexibility and positional variation outlined in this article is the very reason why to some observers we don't have a clear style.

Under De Zerbi, fans knew exactly what to expect. Our build-up was as predictable as it was exhilarating in his first season. This clear identity was ultimately his downfall though as the opposition also knew what we were going to do. That combined with the loss of key players turned our slick machine into a shadow of its former self.

Anyway, that why I kept the faith with Fab throughout the dry run. We don't know what he's going to do and neither does the opposing team. The youth of our team and injuries has perhaps slowed the implementation of the new system(s) but the future looks bright
 
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albionalba

albionalba

Football with optimism
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Aug 31, 2023
328
sadly in Scotland
I guess as always with the predictability of tactics there's a tension between lower injuries / team deliver on the tactics / higher prediction by the opposition vs high injury and/or rotation / team take a while to settle (45 mins in our case!) / harder prediction by the opposition. The challenge is always to what extent a manager can make high rotation combined with immediate tactical engagement by those 'rotations-in' combine to undermine predictability by the opposition. I think DeZerbi nailed that a few times during high injury periods and hopefully Fab is bringing his own overload / forward approach to this too.

What still feels frustrating (as a punter who knows nothing) is the number of times we seem to have possession and dominance going forward and then pass back, presumably to open up space, and then it leads to loss of possession and even opposition goals. It seems to me that we should only be doing that to precede a well-placed long ball forward, rather than a heartstopping kick about with Bart or Jason which is what it seems to end up as.
 


S

sussex_guy2k2

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2014
4,541
Green Cross Code Man said:
But apparently, and those voices are now strangely silent, Hurzeler and his team don't have a 'plan' or style. Something that is confounded by what we saw on Sunday and by articles such as this.
Click to expand...
We’re not silent. Some of us can only go to home games and don’t like to comment on the tactics at games we’ve not seen properly. Personally, I’ve only seen us win twice live this season (missed Spurs).

I’m genuinely really happy that we’re turning results around, but I’d like to see some of these performances for myself, rather than hearing about them on here. Because the majority of what I’ve seen this season has been directionless, planless, and scrappy, where our 4-1-0-0-0-4-1 formation gives up complete control of the midfield and puts huge pressure on the defence and on Baleba to do the work of 2 or 3 players.

But we all want him to succeed. He’s our manager, after all. And maybe, just for now, whatever his plan is translates better to away games where we’re under less pressure to control the game.
 




Green Cross Code Man

Green Cross Code Man

Wunt be druv
Mar 30, 2006
20,919
Eastbourne
albionalba said:
What still feels frustrating (as a punter who knows nothing) is the number of times we seem to have possession and dominance going forward and then pass back, presumably to open up space, and then it leads to loss of possession and even opposition goals. It seems to me that we should only be doing that to precede a well-placed long ball forward, rather than a heartstopping kick about with Bart or Jason which is what it seems to end up as.
Click to expand...
Sometimes those 'resets' lead to a goal though. There was a recent goal, can't for the life of me remember which, that saw just such an approach after an attack 'failed'. It ended going back to Dunk on the left who passed it a couple of times and then rebuilt from the right side. In fact I think it was Lamptey's goal against Villa. So there are occasions where we need to defer frustration and expect our team to make a chance another way.

 




M

Machiavelli

Well-known member
Oct 11, 2013
18,094
Fiveways
I also found this helpful. I think the way we play under FH goes under the name of 'relationalism', a term garnered from Jonathan Wilson who knows a thing or two about football tactics/formations. I'm not claiming that I fully appreciate this approach, but think it's best captured by the two pictures on 36 and 24 minutes. A forward comes deep and this triggers movements forward/inward from other players. One player movement triggers another player movement in order to create space.

If anyone has a briefer description (rather than a link), that'd be much appreciated.
 




WATFORD zero

WATFORD zero

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Jul 10, 2003
28,215
Machiavelli said:
I also found this helpful. I think the way we play under FH goes under the name of 'relationalism', a term garnered from Jonathan Wilson who knows a thing or two about football tactics/formations. I'm not claiming that I fully appreciate this approach, but think it's best captured by the two pictures on 36 and 24 minutes. A forward comes deep and this triggers movements forward/inward from other players. One player movement triggers another player movement in order to create space.

If anyone has a briefer description (rather than a link), that'd be much appreciated.
Click to expand...

I don't think there is a briefer explanation as it is quite complicated and must take a long time on the training ground, and a hell of a lot of thought from the players. Certainly a few months for a squad to be happy with. It could explain why so many of us are struggling to see 'the plan' though.

sussex_guy2k2 said:
We’re not silent. Some of us can only go to home games and don’t like to comment on the tactics at games we’ve not seen properly. Personally, I’ve only seen us win twice live this season (missed Spurs).

I’m genuinely really happy that we’re turning results around, but I’d like to see some of these performances for myself, rather than hearing about them on here. Because the majority of what I’ve seen this season has been directionless, planless, and scrappy, where our 4-1-0-0-0-4-1 formation gives up complete control of the midfield and puts huge pressure on the defence and on Baleba to do the work of 2 or 3 players.

But we all want him to succeed. He’s our manager, after all. And maybe, just for now, whatever his plan is translates better to away games where we’re under less pressure to control the game.
Click to expand...

You know that you can watch all Albion games on t'internet ?
 




S

sussex_guy2k2

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2014
4,541
WATFORD zero said:
I don't think there is a briefer explanation as it is quite complicated and must take a long time on the training ground, and a hell of a lot of thought from the players. Certainly a few months for a squad to be happy with. It could explain why so many of us are struggling to see 'the plan' though.



You know that you can watch all Albion games on t'internet ?
Click to expand...
It’s not the same, with all due respect, even overlooking the illegality of it.
 




Iggle Piggle

Iggle Piggle

Well-known member
Sep 3, 2010
6,127
It certainly looked more coherant on Sunday. I think part of that was due to the 3-4-3 that Utd play. Simple long balls over the top and it was Mitoma / Minteh running at the Centre half. Utd looked a lot better in the game at the AMEX and were unlucky not to get something from that. Same can't be said on Sunday.

I'm looking forward to the Chelsea games. We got that wrong tactically in the away game and i'm interested to see how we set up. I’ve said it before but our variance in performance levels are huge. We were dreadful for 45 against Palace, for 20 against Norwich and for 90 against Brentford yet played Liverpool off the park at Anfield for 45 minutes and were superb in the 2nd half on Sunday. I’ve given up predicting which side turns up.
 


Not Andy Naylor

Not Andy Naylor

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Dec 12, 2007
9,059
Seven Dials
Iggle Piggle said:
It certainly looked more coherant on Sunday. I think part of that was due to the 3-4-3 that Utd play. Simple long balls over the top and it was Mitoma / Minteh running at the Centre half. Utd looked a lot better in the game at the AMEX and were unlucky not to get something from that. Same can't be said on Sunday.

I'm looking forward to the Chelsea games. We got that wrong tactically in the away game and i'm interested to see how we set up. I’ve said it before but our variance in performance levels are huge. We were dreadful for 45 against Palace, for 20 against Norwich and for 90 against Brentford yet played Liverpool off the park at Anfield for 45 minutes and were superb in the 2nd half on Sunday. I’ve given up predicting which side turns up.
Click to expand...
Levi Colwill said after that Chelsea game that they had trained all week on the assumption that we would play the high line that we did. So we have to assume that Maresca will be preparing for something similar to a previous game plan from Fab and it will be up to him to spring a surprise this time.
 


H

Han Solo

Well-known member
May 25, 2024
3,607
Green Cross Code Man said:
But apparently, and those voices are now strangely silent, Hurzeler and his team don't have a 'plan' or style. Something that is confounded by what we saw on Sunday and by articles such as this.
Click to expand...
Yeah because relationism looks like monkeyball chaos before the relations are in place. If we take other examples, Potters attacking play is built on relationism - people switching positions, combining, improvising and trying to know eachothers minds better than the opponents know their manual. Fernando Diniz employs relationism all over the pitch and has been sacked by 15 or some impatient Brazilian clubs - because it often looks chaos and usually doesn't bring much results in the early stages. Henrik Rydströms Malmö obsesses about it to even higher degree and sometimes you'll see five players doing a rondo on the wing resulting in a "wtf was that?" followed by a "well, its a goal".

It looks unstructured because its based on players knowing eachothers movements, thoughts, capacity - can my mate solve this so I can make a run or do I have to come support? - and there's no shortcuts: it can only develop through players spending time together and playing together.

Since ca the Brentford game (and on occasions before that, like against Leicester and Bournemouth) we've started to look more comfortable in this. Many of our players have two seasons of extremely systematic football behind them and going all in on "improvising together through close relations" is certainly a big step in the complete opposite direction.

Two players have been quicker than everyone else to adopt these ideas: Danny Welbeck and Yasin Ayari. We don't want a striker who just stands around waiting for a through ball, we want someone who is involved all over. Welbeck does this both purposely and symbolically.

Against United, Welbeck was fouled just outside our own box from open play. Feck was he doing there? A few minutes later we're slowly building on the left flank, close to the middle of the pitch. Few options, little movement. Welbeck then comes down all the way to Ayari (I think it was) just to get a short pass and immediately give it back to Ayari. Immediate gain? A little bit of United confusion. Longer term gain? Reminding players to take responsibility and not hide from our interactions. Small, small things that makes a difference.

I think we can be excused for being confused with our style. It has looked chaotic because it has been quite chaotic. I think if you ask Hurzeler if we look more like we should now than a month ago, he will strongly agree.
 


M

Machiavelli

Well-known member
Oct 11, 2013
18,094
Fiveways
Han Solo said:
Yeah because relationism looks like monkeyball chaos before the relations are in place. If we take other examples, Potters attacking play is built on relationism - people switching positions, combining, improvising and trying to know eachothers minds better than the opponents know their manual. Fernando Diniz employs relationism all over the pitch and has been sacked by 15 or some impatient Brazilian clubs - because it often looks chaos and usually doesn't bring much results in the early stages. Henrik Rydströms Malmö obsesses about it to even higher degree and sometimes you'll see five players doing a rondo on the wing resulting in a "wtf was that?" followed by a "well, its a goal".

It looks unstructured because its based on players knowing eachothers movements, thoughts, capacity - can my mate solve this so I can make a run or do I have to come support? - and there's no shortcuts: it can only develop through players spending time together and playing together.

Since ca the Brentford game (and on occasions before that, like against Leicester and Bournemouth) we've started to look more comfortable in this. Many of our players have two seasons of extremely systematic football behind them and going all in on "improvising together through close relations" is certainly a big step in the complete opposite direction.

Two players have been quicker than everyone else to adopt these ideas: Danny Welbeck and Yasin Ayari. We don't want a striker who just stands around waiting for a through ball, we want someone who is involved all over. Welbeck does this both purposely and symbolically.

Against United, Welbeck was fouled just outside our own box from open play. Feck was he doing there? A few minutes later we're slowly building on the left flank, close to the middle of the pitch. Few options, little movement. Welbeck then comes down all the way to Ayari (I think it was) just to get a short pass and immediately give it back to Ayari. Immediate gain? A little bit of United confusion. Longer term gain? Reminding players to take responsibility and not hide from our interactions. Small, small things that makes a difference.

I think we can be excused for being confused with our style. It has looked chaotic because it has been quite chaotic. I think if you ask Hurzeler if we look more like we should now than a month ago, he will strongly agree.
Click to expand...
Thanks for this. It appears that FH does use relationism. Am I right in highlighting the two diagrams on 24 and 36mins about the core of relationism -- see (my) post 11?
 




dazzer6666

dazzer6666

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Mar 27, 2013
56,451
Burgess Hill
Machiavelli said:
I also found this helpful. I think the way we play under FH goes under the name of 'relationalism', a term garnered from Jonathan Wilson who knows a thing or two about football tactics/formations. I'm not claiming that I fully appreciate this approach, but think it's best captured by the two pictures on 36 and 24 minutes. A forward comes deep and this triggers movements forward/inward from other players. One player movement triggers another player movement in order to create space.

If anyone has a briefer description (rather than a link), that'd be much appreciated.
Click to expand...
In a nutshell why we look so much better when Danny plays..........
 




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