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[Football] The best thing about the FA Cup on Saturday....



Nobby Cybergoat

Nobby Cybergoat

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2021
9,060
schmunk said:
Are you also OK for balls that don't quite cross the line to be given as goals?
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Again, if we could get this right, fine. Look at the Villa Sheff Utd game. A total sliding doors moment with massive implications for both clubs

Refs aren't even looking now. It's kind of like, if you know there's a sat nav, you don't need to bother using your brain to navigate. So when the tech fails, the refs are now utterly dependent and aren't engaging their brains.

A ref, 2 linos, a 4th official, should be enough to get most stuff right if they are unsure
 




schmunk

schmunk

Well-used member
Jan 19, 2018
10,625
Mid mid mid Sussex
US Seagull said:
Comparing apples and oranges there. The goal line tech works and gives an answer in a few seconds. I don't think anybody really has a problem with that.

It it took 5 minutes, multiple camera angles and drawing of lines for goal line tech to work, I think people would probably think it's not worth it.
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So you're saying that measuring infractions by millimetres is actually within the spirit of the law, as long as it's done quickly? How quickly is sufficient?
 


Uh_huh_him

Uh_huh_him

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2011
12,737
Nobby Cybergoat said:
Again, if we could get this right, fine. Look at the Villa Sheff Utd game. A total sliding doors moment with massive implications for both clubs

Refs aren't even looking now. It's kind of like, if you know there's a sat nav, you don't need to bother using your brain to navigate. So when the tech fails, the refs are now utterly dependent and aren't engaging their brains.

A ref, 2 linos, a 4th official, should be enough to get most stuff right if they are unsure
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The biggest problem with VAR, is the time it takes to get to the decision.
This is the area that PGMOL need to focus on.

It should be a relatively easy fix, once it is acknowledged there will never be a 100% perfect system.
i.e time limit on the decision, otherwise onfield decision stands.

As the technology and officials improve, so will the experience.
 


Nobby Cybergoat

Nobby Cybergoat

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2021
9,060
Uh_huh_him said:
The biggest problem with VAR, is the time it takes to get to the decision.
This is the area that PGMOL need to focus on.

It should be a relatively easy fix, once it is acknowledged there will never be a 100% perfect system.
i.e time limit on the decision, otherwise onfield decision stands.

As the technology and officials improve, so will the experience.
Click to expand...
I can't agree. The system was implemented in the PL in 2019. It isn't going to improve. The automated offside thing might speed that particular offence up, but my concern goes much wider than offside decisions.

Not being able to know straight away if it's a goal (or sending off or penalty or whatever) or not, is just incompatible with football supporting culture in my view.

It should be removed in it's entirety.
 


US Seagull

US Seagull

Well-known member
Jul 17, 2003
4,998
Cleveland, OH
schmunk said:
So you're saying that measuring infractions by millimetres is actually within the spirit of the law, as long as it's done quickly? How quickly is sufficient?
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No, I'm saying that the ball crossing the goal line or not is both exactly the spirit and the letter of the law.
 








Uh_huh_him

Uh_huh_him

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2011
12,737
Nobby Cybergoat said:
I can't agree. The system was implemented in the PL in 2019. It isn't going to improve. The automated offside thing might speed that particular offence up, but my concern goes much wider than offside decisions.

Not being able to know straight away if it's a goal (or sending off or penalty or whatever) or not, is just incompatible with football supporting culture in my view.

It should be removed in it's entirety.
Click to expand...

It has improved, just not quickly enough for many.
It won't be removed. The clubs and players want it, more than they want to go back to losing points/titles to incorrect decision.

Where does that leave you and the many others that agree with you?
I know plenty of people that have given up on attending Premier League matches in favour for non-league.
Do you think that would be an ultimate answer for you?
 




Sorrel

Sorrel

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2003
3,007
Back in East Sussex
Bodian said:
VAR doesn't check whether free-kicks are taken 15 yards nearer the goal than the offence though....
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And imagine if it did check every decision... it would add twenty more minutes to every half.

I agree with those above who said VAR is ok, but needs to be quicker. It should have a simple decision graph:
  1. Ref or linesman has made a decision (or missed something).
  2. Does it - on first replay - look very much a wrong decision? If yes look further.
  3. If no, tell them to keep playing.
 


Nobby Cybergoat

Nobby Cybergoat

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2021
9,060
Uh_huh_him said:
It has improved, just not quickly enough for many.
It won't be removed. The clubs and players want it, more than they want to go back to losing points/titles to incorrect decision.

Where does that leave you and the many others that agree with you?
I know plenty of people that have given up on attending Premier League matches in favour for non-league.
Do you think that would be an ultimate answer for you?
Click to expand...
Only if Brighton were playing non league
 


dazzer6666

dazzer6666

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Mar 27, 2013
56,454
Burgess Hill
US Seagull said:
Comparing apples and oranges there. The goal line tech works and gives an answer in a few seconds. I don't think anybody really has a problem with that.

It it took 5 minutes, multiple camera angles and drawing of lines for goal line tech to work, I think people would probably think it's not worth it.
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……and the offside call isn’t 100% accurate anyway. Goal line tech is virtually 100%
 




Guinness Boy

Guinness Boy

Tofu eating wokerati
Helpful Moderator
NSC Patron
Jul 23, 2003
38,093
Up and Coming Sunny Portslade
Nobby Cybergoat said:
It's quite demeaning to the, (what seems to me to be) the great majority of people against VAR who pay through the nose to go to football, that they only dislike it when it goes against them and are happy enough with it, when it goes for them.

Most people are against it, many strongly so and the reason is the effect it has on the matchday experience, it's not narrow short term self interest.

This run of FA Cup games was the perfect example, football is all about the moments. It's about Solly March scoring a belter. Was he offside? No bloody clue. But do you know what? Offside was the prevent people goalhanging. He clearly wasn't goalhanging, so if he's a centimetre on or off, it really doesn't matter. Of course the lino may have flagged, but at least Solly would have known straight away, we'd have all known, instead of some interminable process, which despite the apparent professionalism, modern tech and wedges of money thrown at it, they still botch regularly.

And if it was going to improve, it would have done by now. We've got the shit officials we've got, and they're going to get worse as grassroots refs leave the game and the talent pool shrinks further. Let's just embrace, we'll get a shocker from time to time, but it will be an honest shocker, but at least we can get straight on with the game
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This all day long. An absolute JOY to celebrate Solly's goal madly without the dreaded purple sign coming up.

It mattered absolutely zero in the context of the match whether he was offside or not - the game was already won. But, with my blue and white specs on it's given Solly a real boost coming back from injury and brought the team together, from the perspective of the neutral reporter it's a nice story to report and video clip and from the lino's perspective he's actually had to do some thinking and earn his match fee.
 


Beanstalk

Beanstalk

Well-known member
Apr 5, 2017
3,115
London
I might be in the minority here, but I don't know how you could have watched the games at the weekend and felt it was a great advert against VAR.

My big takeaway from the weekend was that the second it was removed, players started to dive again and look to con the ref, knowing that they may get away with it. Havertz won a penalty for one of the clearest dives I've ever seen which would have no doubt have been overturned by VAR. Fun that Bayindir saved the day but I can't believe anyone wants to watch Arsenal v Manchester United decided by a bit of canny cheating.

VAR is here to stay and this weekend (Solly's goal included) was a really good example of why, at its most basic level, VAR is ultimately good for the fairness of the game (in correcting obvious mistakes).
 


Official Old Man

Official Old Man

Uckfield Seagull
Aug 27, 2011
9,290
Brighton
Shirt Sponsorship.
I noticed that Chelsea had an extra shirt sponsor on the back of their shirts, although still no main sponsor. Don't think any other EPL team had this. Was this instead of the main sponsor or another sponsor?
 






Simster

Simster

"the man's an arse"
Jul 7, 2003
55,113
Surrey
US Seagull said:
Comparing apples and oranges there. The goal line tech works and gives an answer in a few seconds. I don't think anybody really has a problem with that.

It it took 5 minutes, multiple camera angles and drawing of lines for goal line tech to work, I think people would probably think it's not worth it.
Click to expand...
But it ought to be like that for offsides - you're either offside or you're not. If the offside law was clarified (such that offside was only measured from the foot or head) then it ought to only take a few seconds to give a result.

My biggest issue with VAR is when it gets involved in subjective decisions. It's also worth pointing out that VAR implementation has definitely got a lot better since it was introduced when it was giving stupid hand ball penalties and such.
 


dazzer6666

dazzer6666

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Mar 27, 2013
56,454
Burgess Hill
Beanstalk said:
I might be in the minority here, but I don't know how you could have watched the games at the weekend and felt it was a great advert against VAR.

My big takeaway from the weekend was that the second it was removed, players started to dive again and look to con the ref, knowing that they may get away with it. Havertz won a penalty for one of the clearest dives I've ever seen which would have no doubt have been overturned by VAR. Fun that Bayindir saved the day but I can't believe anyone wants to watch Arsenal v Manchester United decided by a bit of canny cheating.

VAR is here to stay and this weekend (Solly's goal included) was a really good example of why, at its most basic level, VAR is ultimately good for the fairness of the game (in correcting obvious mistakes).
Click to expand...
With VAR, Solly’s goal would have led to another lengthy delay because it wasn’t obviously off.

Interesting watching Rutter celebrate the first goal……..looked like he was waiting for an offside decision (he wasn’t anyway), seemed to look at the lino a couple times, see no flag, pause then perhaps realise there was no VAR
 


Lady Whistledown

Lady Whistledown

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Jul 7, 2003
47,819
I wonder how the psychology of it impacts on officials. Especially the linos.

In PL games, they have the safety net of the VAR, so, although of course they won't want to make mistakes, they have that to come to their rescue if they do get it wrong. The same officials then go to Cup games where that isn't there. I'm curious as to whether it has any bearing, even subconsciously, on their thought process.
 




Beanstalk

Beanstalk

Well-known member
Apr 5, 2017
3,115
London
dazzer6666 said:
With VAR, Solly’s goal would have led to another lengthy delay because it wasn’t obviously off.

Interesting watching Rutter celebrate the first goal……..looked like he was waiting for an offside decision (he wasn’t anyway), seemed to look at the lino a couple times, see no flag, pause then perhaps realise there was no VAR
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Sure, it would've caused a delay, and would've been disappointing when it was ruled out, but it would also have been fair, because that goal was offside and the laws of the game are pretty clear.

Look, I completely get all the frustration with VAR, it's implementation has been, to put it kindly, dogshit. I just don't want to see a game where everyone can see on a replay that a goal has unfairly counted (or a penalty has been incorrectly given) and that has decided the score line. Multiple examples of that this weekend; Leeds should've conceded a blatant penalty at 0-0 but no VAR to serve justice and now Harrogate are out of the cup. Until referee's get markedly better, then VAR is the best deliverer of fairness we have.
 


Lady Whistledown

Lady Whistledown

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Jul 7, 2003
47,819
Simster said:
But it ought to be like that for offsides - you're either offside or you're not. If the offside law was clarified (such that offside was only measured from the foot or head) then it ought to only take a few seconds to give a result.
Click to expand...
But we don't have cameras keeping up with play, so as it stands, even the drawing of the lines is a subjective thing and often done from an angle, rather than straight on*. You have arms and knees and elbows all over the place: it's not that easy to determine which is a micro millimetre furthest forward.

*Or, if you're VAR at Selhurst Park, on a random Palace defender who isn't the last one
 


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