[Albion] Our “big spend”

sussex_guy2k2 · Dec 17, 2024

BadFish said:
We may have spent 200m but we are still shopping in the same market of potential.

After our qualification into Europe we sold 200m worth of talent, most of which was McAllister and Caicedo. Replacing them with 20-30m rated talent is always going to be a risk and take time.

For me our spend doesn't come with 'much bigger expectations' it was overdue to keep us at the same level. Maybe it pushed up from top 10 to having a good crack at Europe. But our overexcitment about champions league came from our great start to the season. Courtesy of our inept manager and shit players.

We are sitting in 10th in the premier league with some of the most exciting young talent in Europe. What is everyone moaning about?

Shit form happens but we haven't become a shit team over night. Hold your nerve, it will be alright.

And I respect your right to not have raised your expectations. I work with a guy who always wants to do the same thing, who never wants anything to improve as long as his status quo is kept the same, and I respect him for that, but I balance this part of him out by driving new projects, developing new ways to do things, and aiming for higher goals. We’re all different people, and I don’t expect to be told my opinion is worth less because I expect more following the biggest spend in Europe… no matter how it’s dressed up.

Irrespective of that, I just don’t rate our manager. I think our best results have been in spite of him, not because of him, and I think he’s looked tactically inept for the majority of his time here, without a proper footballing plan at this level, in pretty much every game I’ve watched live.

I hope he proves me wrong, because I want our club to succeed, but my faith with him is really low. If this was someone on probation at a job, they’d be in meetings with a plan for how to drastically improve very quickly, and if they didn’t, they’d be out.

jcdenton08 · Dec 17, 2024

Bodian said:
We're doing even better!!

Looking at those numbers again, actually Everton are the ones who surprise me most. Now, if they can stop paying extraordinary wages to average players they could have a chance to compete further up the table…

um bongo molongo · Dec 17, 2024

Paulie Gualtieri said:
I look at it as more of a £200m investment before the FFP goal posts were moved.

Most were young prospects, a few £25m stabilisers to make the core squad stronger but that’s it.

We’ve spent £200m now on the basis we won’t be doing this again for a few seasons at least as confirmed by Tone himself.

This is the second phase of buying talent for profit, all be it this time we have bought early in their cycle, rather than discover them

These are a well run club

It’s only a good investment if they appreciate in value rather than depreciate. Which is why I suspect Tony’s patience won’t be limitless if the coaching isn’t aiding that.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Dec 17, 2024

Terry Butcher Tribute Act said:
The warning signs were there long before this. We should have shipped 3 against Crawley ffs. The Ipswich draw, the Wolves capitulation. The Chelsea high line debacle. All the while we were getting results nobody cared so much. Now though...

Fab.....out?

Terry Butcher Tribute Act · Dec 17, 2024

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
Fab.....out?

No, but needs to improve fast. Needs backing in January with players to suit his system

Jimmy Come Lately · Dec 17, 2024

I don't care about the £200m that Uncle Tony spent in the summer. I'm more concerned about the £80 I just spent renewing my passport in the expectation of European football next year, and I won't be satisfied unless we get it.

chickens · Dec 17, 2024

I agree completely with the OP’s point about us buying players to develop, rather than “finished article” players. My only concern is the sheer number of young players we’re trying to develop at once, and that we’ve also brought in a young manager to develop at the same time. The coaching staff have a hell of a lot of work on to try and bring all these individual talents along while still occasionally winning the odd football match.

I disagree with @sussex_guy2k2 regarding FH looking inept or out of his depth. I think he’s trying all sorts of different combinations and patterns of play, and seeing what works and what doesn’t. Some won’t work, it doesn’t mean there was no value in trying them. I also feel the targets that were available last summer have left the squad unbalanced. CM, right-wing and No 10, we’re definitely overstocked.

I also feel our defence has now been exposed under two different coaches. They can’t play high, they can’t play a back three, they want to sit in positions they feel comfortable in, which appears to be a traditional deep(ish) back four. We can’t be that one-dimensional, we have to be able to switch it around game by game. For me it’s become the problem area of the team. It will be interesting to see how that particular rebuild goes.

BadFish · Dec 17, 2024

sussex_guy2k2 said:
And I respect your right to not have raised your expectations. I work with a guy who always wants to do the same thing, who never wants anything to improve as long as his status quo is kept the same, and I respect him for that, but I balance this part of him out by driving new projects, developing new ways to do things, and aiming for higher goals. We’re all different people, and I don’t expect to be told my opinion is worth less because I expect more following the biggest spend in Europe… no matter how it’s dressed up.

Irrespective of that, I just don’t rate our manager. I think our best results have been in spite of him, not because of him, and I think he’s looked tactically inept for the majority of his time here, without a proper footballing plan at this level, in pretty much every game I’ve watched live.

I hope he proves me wrong, because I want our club to succeed, but my faith with him is really low. If this was someone on probation at a job, they’d be in meetings with a plan for how to drastically improve very quickly, and if they didn’t, they’d be out.

I think to suggest that I don't want things to improve is a massive stretch!

My belief is that we have to work with the strengths of our club, one of which is the strategy of buying potential and having the patience to see it flourish.

I also see the 200m different to you I think. And think the manager looks promising and needs some more time.

Garry Nelson's Left Foot · Dec 18, 2024

Littlemo said:
Does it look stronger than 2022/23 though? I honestly see how or why we all seem to think that. Most are players we don’t know from other leagues, who all have to either get up to speed with the league and still haven’t, or kids who need developed.

The squad in 2022/23 had a lot more PL experience in it, and just more football experience in general. I think it looks significantly stronger tbh and I think that’s what we are seeing as well.

On paper, yes I think it does look stronger now. It hasn't looked it on the pitch but on paper, yes.

The point of prem experience is interesting. I'm not sure 2022/23 did have more. Of the 22/23 squad the only players with significant prem experience that we've lost are Gross and Lallana. We've added Milner on that front. The rest of the current squad have more experience in general I think.

Colwill, JPVH, Caicedo, Enciso, Ferguson, Undav, Mitoma were all either just breaking into the team or playing their first premier league season. Ayari and Buonanotte were added in January and weren't factors. Sarmiento and Gilmour were both fringe players and Moder was of course out for the entire season.

I think the defence is mostly unchanged but has more experinece now than then.

Midfield is interesting. More players with experience but less with a large amount. But the two main midfield signings of Wieffer and O'Riley don't have prem experience but they are experienced pros. They're not teenagers trying to break into the team.

The forwards have more experience too. In 2022/23 the only player who had played a prem game was Welbeck. now we have five players who have all played prem football before the season started.

My overall point is that I think it is perfectly understandable that fans had raised expectations after the 200m spend. Yes the full value of the signings will be (hopefully)seen in a year or two down the line but they were added for short term benefit too. The argument that they were added to bring us back to where we were, that they were replacing players we lost but didn't replace only backs that up IMO. The players we lost got us to 6th so if we're replacing them then...

BadFish · Dec 18, 2024

Littlemo said:
Does it look stronger than 2022/23 though? I honestly see how or why we all seem to think that. Most are players we don’t know from other leagues, who all have to either get up to speed with the league and still haven’t, or kids who need developed.

The squad in 2022/23 had a lot more PL experience in it, and just more football experience in general. I think it looks significantly stronger tbh and I think that’s what we are seeing as well.

I think that maybe the squad does look stronger but the first team is not. The engine room of MacAllister and Caicedo may never be improved upon.

oldboyroy · Dec 18, 2024

At the end of the day we all want our club doing well and challenging for the European places. It keeps the dreams and hopes there and keeps us in the national spotlight. Even Fab himself says we want to challenge the establishment at top end of the league! Some of our wins we've been fortunate, but also, some of our points dropped have been our own doing rather than dropping points to better teams. Defensively, we're pretty poor at present and that urgently needs to improve otherwise, we could be looking over our shoulders by end of January. We spent more than we've ever spent in the summer and the very least I imagine Tony expects is top 10. The jury is still very much out on Fab and I hope he can sort things out very quickly. It will only take a couple of wins to put us back on track, get confidence back (young players thrive on confidence) whereas, a few more winless games will ramp up the pressure.

sussex_guy2k2 · Dec 18, 2024

BadFish said:
I think to suggest that I don't want things to improve is a massive stretch!

My belief is that we have to work with the strengths of our club, one of which is the strategy of buying potential and having the patience to see it flourish.

I also see the 200m different to you I think. And think the manager looks promising and needs some more time.

And I totally respect your right to that opinion. I want to see the £200m flourish. Let’s be honest, that bit has to be given time as we can’t bin them all off.

I just don’t think they will under this manager, based on what I’ve seen.

sussex_guy2k2 · Dec 18, 2024

chickens said:
I agree completely with the OP’s point about us buying players to develop, rather than “finished article” players. My only concern is the sheer number of young players we’re trying to develop at once, and that we’ve also brought in a young manager to develop at the same time. The coaching staff have a hell of a lot of work on to try and bring all these individual talents along while still occasionally winning the odd football match.

I disagree with @sussex_guy2k2 regarding FH looking inept or out of his depth. I think he’s trying all sorts of different combinations and patterns of play, and seeing what works and what doesn’t. Some won’t work, it doesn’t mean there was no value in trying them. I also feel the targets that were available last summer have left the squad unbalanced. CM, right-wing and No 10, we’re definitely overstocked.

I also feel our defence has now been exposed under two different coaches. They can’t play high, they can’t play a back three, they want to sit in positions they feel comfortable in, which appears to be a traditional deep(ish) back four. We can’t be that one-dimensional, we have to be able to switch it around game by game. For me it’s become the problem area of the team. It will be interesting to see how that particular rebuild goes.

I respect your right to that opinion.

It does go partly back to the summer spend though. In the “rate our summer” thread, I made the point that I couldn’t judge it until we saw it in action, because I didn’t think we’d dealt with the problem areas and I wasn’t sure we’d improved the team. Not much has changed in that regard. And that’s isn’t on the manager.

The question is whether we think FH is doing the best with what he has. You think he has, and I don’t. Ultimately, as a manager, you have to fit the tactics to the players you have. You cover their weaknesses and show off this with strengths. Our current system shows off almost everyone’s weaknesses and allows pretty much no one to show off their strengths consistently, except maybe Baleba. Someone like Lamptey comes in, with the opposite skill set of a Veltman, and we’re not adapting in any way, shape or form, to the different qualities of the players.

To me that suggests a tactically inept manager, particularly when they can’t stop changing it around because they can’t work out what they want, and when they’ve realised their go to system (the 4-1-0-0-0-0-5) gets so easily exposed in this league.

I said to my friend yesterday, that I’d fancy myself to take any premier league squad into a match against us and get at least a point (half jokingly, of course). But the truth is, we’re so easy to play against. And that’s on the manager.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Dec 18, 2024

Terry Butcher Tribute Act said:
No, but needs to improve fast. Needs backing in January with players to suit his system

He has a system? :wink:

(My take is we have plenty of players and are exactly where we should be, on a pathway well-understood by the club. I don't have any resonance with your apparent concerns. But we shall of course see what transpires....)

chickens · Dec 18, 2024

sussex_guy2k2 said:
I respect your right to that opinion.

It does go partly back to the summer spend though. In the “rate our summer” thread, I made the point that I couldn’t judge it until we saw it in action, because I didn’t think we’d dealt with the problem areas and I wasn’t sure we’d improved the team. Not much has changed in that regard. And that’s isn’t on the manager.

The question is whether we think FH is doing the best with what he has. You think he has, and I don’t. Ultimately, as a manager, you have to fit the tactics to the players you have. You cover their weaknesses and show off this with strengths. Our current system shows off almost everyone’s weaknesses and allows pretty much no one to show off their strengths consistently, except maybe Baleba. Someone like Lamptey comes in, with the opposite skill set of a Veltman, and we’re not adapting in any way, shape or form, to the different qualities of the players.

To me that suggests a tactically inept manager, particularly when they can’t stop changing it around because they can’t work out what they want, and when they’ve realised their go to system (the 4-1-0-0-0-0-5) gets so easily exposed in this league.

I said to my friend yesterday, that I’d fancy myself to take any premier league squad into a match against us and get at least a point (half jokingly, of course). But the truth is, we’re so easy to play against. And that’s on the manager.

We just see it differently. For me if there’s any “blame” anywhere, it’s that we’ve left ourselves in a situation where if one of our CBs gets injured or has a drop in form, we don’t have cover. We’re trying to bring too many prospects through at once, and the fact that all our available targets last summer were (with the exception of Ferdi) CM, right wingers or No 10s we have a really unbalanced squad. Young players make mistakes, you can’t bollock them for it or they become scared of playing.

We also selected a head coach who wants to play a high back four or a back three, without the personnel to do either. The club would have known this, so either banked on our back four being more flexible than they’ve proven, or intended (intend?) to rebuild our defence.

I don’t think it’s FH on the hook for any of the above. The club knew what they were getting, and handled the transfers. I’m praying that Dunk’s drop in form is temporary, and/or that there’s at least one CB incoming in January.

As regards FH tactics, I was ok with both the high back 4 and the 3 at the back. We conceded, but I’d expect us to learning a new system. I hope FH has the courage of his convictions, and the club back him. I think we’re worse now that FH seems to be trying to appease our defenders and find alternatives to playing the back three or high line. That’s the only part of all this where I feel some of the responsibility is FH’s.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Dec 18, 2024

sussex_guy2k2 said:
I respect your right to that opinion.

It does go partly back to the summer spend though. In the “rate our summer” thread, I made the point that I couldn’t judge it until we saw it in action, because I didn’t think we’d dealt with the problem areas and I wasn’t sure we’d improved the team. Not much has changed in that regard. And that’s isn’t on the manager.

The question is whether we think FH is doing the best with what he has. You think he has, and I don’t. Ultimately, as a manager, you have to fit the tactics to the players you have. You cover their weaknesses and show off this with strengths. Our current system shows off almost everyone’s weaknesses and allows pretty much no one to show off their strengths consistently, except maybe Baleba. Someone like Lamptey comes in, with the opposite skill set of a Veltman, and we’re not adapting in any way, shape or form, to the different qualities of the players.

To me that suggests a tactically inept manager, particularly when they can’t stop changing it around because they can’t work out what they want, and when they’ve realised their go to system (the 4-1-0-0-0-0-5) gets so easily exposed in this league.

I said to my friend yesterday, that I’d fancy myself to take any premier league squad into a match against us and get at least a point (half jokingly, of course). But the truth is, we’re so easy to play against. And that’s on the manager.

Well argued.
I am not yet ready to conclude the manager is inept, however.

Forgetting little ole Brighton, can anyone explain how Moureen wins the European cup and quickly turns into a nobber?
And can anyone explain how Pep has gone from best manager ever to someone who can't buy a win?
And Wenger, does a season unbeaten, then can't win anything.
Is it possible to become inept?
I have always assumed it is a trait rather than a correctable misstep.

When we beat ManU, Citeh, Spuds and 'muff, was that just luck?

I find it all so confusing, and can only conclude that its a funny old game.

Justice · Dec 18, 2024

aftershavedave said:
I disagree with most of the above. We spend more than any club in Europe and they are all "maybes". Doesn't make sense, you'd expect those players to be on fire

Indeed,

BadFish said:
I think to suggest that I don't want things to improve is a massive stretch!

My belief is that we have to work with the strengths of our club, one of which is the strategy of buying potential and having the patience to see it flourish.

I also see the 200m different to you I think. And think the manager looks promising and needs some more time.

How has the manager impressed you so far?

Sid and the Sharknados · Dec 18, 2024

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
Well argued.
I am not yet ready to conclude the manager is inept, however.

Forgetting little ole Brighton, can anyone explain how Moureen wins the European cup and quickly turns into a nobber?
And can anyone explain how Pep has gone from best manager ever to someone who can't buy a win?
And Wenger, does a season unbeaten, then can't win anything.
Is it possible to become inept?
I have always assumed it is a trait rather than a correctable misstep.

When we beat ManU, Citeh, Spuds and 'muff, was that just luck?

I find it all so confusing, and can only conclude that its a funny old game.

Yes, it is possible to become inept. Loss of interest/motivation, losing connection with contemporary ideas and attitudes, development of a massive ego, can all cause that.

It would be quite something to have switched from "ept" to "inept" in the course of a couple of weeks mid season though. That would suggest a certain baseline of ineptitude that was being covered up by good fortune and the positive side of inconsistency, that people had confused for eptitude.

I suspect the reality is a talented but inexperienced coach leading a similarly talented but inexperienced team, who'll collectively be somewhat inconsistent while finishing somewhere in the 10-15th place bracket. Who will all learn on the job, briefly attain collective competence, before being sold off and restarting the cycle.

Jumping back quickly, re. Mourinho, there were 5 years between him winning the Champions League for the last time in 2010 and winning the Premier League in 2015. Plenty of time to develop shitness along the way.

BadFish · Dec 18, 2024

Justice said:
Indeed,

How has the manager impressed you so far?

Some of the result have been outstanding and some of the football has been magnificent. I see a team that can cut defences open with incisive football, some of the goals we have scored have been class.

The ability to shut up shop against Newcastle was great.

By no means the finished article and there is a lot to work on, but for me enough to
not pull the plug on the whole project after a few shit performances.

As I have answered your question can I ask who was the last manager we had that you didn't turn on?

Happy to be proved incorrect but it seems like you moan about everyone.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Dec 18, 2024

Sid and the Sharknados said:
Yes, it is possible to become inept. Loss of interest/motivation, losing connection with contemporary ideas and attitudes, development of a massive ego, can all cause that.

It would be quite something to have switched from "ept" to "inept" in the course of a couple of weeks mid season though. That would suggest a certain baseline of ineptitude that was being covered up by good fortune and the positive side of inconsistency, that people had confused for eptitude.

I suspect the reality is a talented but inexperienced coach leading a similarly talented but inexperienced team, who'll collectively be somewhat inconsistent while finishing somewhere in the 10-15th place bracket. Who will all learn on the job, briefly attain collective competence, before being sold off and restarting the cycle.

Jumping back quickly, re. Mourinho, there were 5 years between him winning the Champions League for the last time in 2010 and winning the Premier League in 2015. Plenty of time to develop shitness along the way.

Precisely my point.

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