[News] Homosexuality and the Armed Forces.

lawros left foot said:

I’ll apologise now if my thoughts on this annoy or upset anyone.

Having served at a time when it was illegal to be in the Forces and be gay, I am torn with the Government’s announcement that they will be paying compensation to anyone who was kicked out for their sexuality.
While I think that there was some awful treatment meted out to gay people in the Services, I also know of at least 2 cases where homosexuality was used as a kind of ‘get out of jail free’ card by lads who desperately wanted to leave, but were unable to due to length of service etc.
I also know of a very unfair case of a senior non- commissioned officer being stripped of his rank, and pension, and dismissed as services no longer required. This is one up from a dishonourable discharge. This was after 20+ years service.
There was never a whiff of scandal about him, a thoroughly decent, very competent rating, popular with everyone who knew him. I still remember the shock on being told he was being thrown out, and the reason for it, and I was far from being the only one.

In those days, when you joined up, more or less on your first day, you were asked if you were a homosexual, if you answered in the positive you were immediately sent home, before you signed on the dotted line. This practice was, I believe, still in force up until 2000, when the restrictions were lifted.

I really don’t know if I agree with a blanket compensation plan, I do think that each case should be individually assessed. Whether there is the will for this is a different matter.

I would just like to make clear, I completely agree with the policy regarding gay people in the Forces now. I was on a consultation process as far back as 1990, as a junior rating representative and spoke up for the liberalising of the policy enforced then.

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rippleman said:

Neither annoyed nor upset. Just a bit disappointed.

Your sexuality has absolutely nothing to do with your willingness or ability to serve your country. And those that were persecuted and / or bullied out of the services just because they were gay are deserving of compensation.

Alan Turing served his country. Nothing more to be said really.

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dazzer6666 said:

I also struggle with applying new standards/rules to some historic settings..... although I don't have a clue what the right answer is. Those (such as your NCO) being treated in such a way (although he presumably knew the rules when he signed up) and the lifelong impact this will have had on him is awful.

'Compensation culture' annoys me massively.......

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Those statements give shocking evidence of a culture of homophobia, and of bullying, blackmail and sexual assaults, abusive investigations into sexual orientation and sexual preference, disgraceful medical examinations, including conversion therapy, peremptory discharges, and appalling consequences in terms of mental health and wellbeing, homelessness, employment, personal relationships and financial hardship.

The Rt. Hon Lord Etherton Kt, KC, PC

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clapham_gull said:

I would sympathy with that view because the ban was effectively law at the time, irrespective of how the rest of society had moved on.

However, there was a shocking review into the previous treatment of service people.

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lawros left foot said:

I’ll apologise now if my thoughts on this annoy or upset anyone.

Having served at a time when it was illegal to be in the Forces and be gay, I am torn with the Government’s announcement that they will be paying compensation to anyone who was kicked out for their sexuality.
While I think that there was some awful treatment meted out to gay people in the Services, I also know of at least 2 cases where homosexuality was used as a kind of ‘get out of jail free’ card by lads who desperately wanted to leave, but were unable to due to length of service etc.
I also know of a very unfair case of a senior non- commissioned officer being stripped of his rank, and pension, and dismissed as services no longer required. This is one up from a dishonourable discharge. This was after 20+ years service.
There was never a whiff of scandal about him, a thoroughly decent, very competent rating, popular with everyone who knew him. I still remember the shock on being told he was being thrown out, and the reason for it, and I was far from being the only one.

In those days, when you joined up, more or less on your first day, you were asked if you were a homosexual, if you answered in the positive you were immediately sent home, before you signed on the dotted line. This practice was, I believe, still in force up until 2000, when the restrictions were lifted.

I really don’t know if I agree with a blanket compensation plan, I do think that each case should be individually assessed. Whether there is the will for this is a different matter.

I would just like to make clear, I completely agree with the policy regarding gay people in the Forces now. I was on a consultation process as far back as 1990, as a junior rating representative and spoke up for the liberalising of the policy enforced then.

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nickbrighton said:

I served in the RAF from 1980 to 1992. I joined when I was 18 I am gay...

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nickbrighton said:

I served in the RAF from 1980 to 1992. I joined when I was 18 I am gay, I knew it at the time. I also was asked if I was gay before I signed on, and it was made perfectly clear to me that being gay in the Military were simply not allowed and anyone found later would suffer severe consequences (Thrown out, Jail time, dishonourable discharge). During the first week at Basic Training, during one of the induction briefings (Held in the station cinema) with a couple of hundred recruits in attendance, one of the SNCO in charge came on stage and said "If any of you is a f***ing poof, get up and leave now, your enlistment will be cancelled , nothing on your record. This is the last chance, and to be clear, I dont want any f***ing poof in my Air Force".

I stayed and did not declare I was gay! I was bloody good at my job, and after 10 years or so, having served perfectly well in various locations (UK, Falklands, Cyprus) . I was promoted to JNCO level and was on the board for consideration as a SNCO

About this time I was "investigated" for homosexuality. I was pulled from my shift by RAF Police, shoved in an interrogation room, and basically given the third degree . My locker at work was searched, in full view of everyone, my room in the accom block was literally pulled apart

Being a JNCO I had younger airman under my command, 17 yr olds and up. They were all interviewed and basically "encouraged" to out me- my colleagues, friends and just about everyone else was interviewed by the RAF equivalent of CID. Thing Regan on a bad day from " The Sweeny"

The RAF Police couldn't find any "evidence" , no one outted me-mainly because I had never done anything with anyone. After a couple of weeks I was told no charges were being brought against me. I then had to go back to work as normal -not fun when the entire station knows what had just occured.

I then decided that enough was enough and I had to leave before I was found out. I had to work 18 months notice before I could leave. Less than a month before I left, one of my friends told me that a particularly nasty RAF Policeman had interviewed him saying "I want to get that gay bastard before he leaves"

Had I been charged it would have meant Court Martial , SIX months in military prison, dishonourable discharge, loss of 12 years pension

I was a lucky one, I managed to leave before being found out. I lost a career I loved and , was very good at, a way of life, friends and gave over a decade of Service

However, I KNEW before I signed up that i was not allowed, it was made very clear to me at the time and all the way through my time in the RAF.

Should I be entitled to compensation ? I wasn't thrown out, I left on my own accord, so I doubt I am included in the scheme anyway-though I will look into it. In my mind part of me says I knew what I was getting into, therefore I shouldnt be entitled to compensation. Anyone else who was gay also knew what they were signing up for. Another part of me thinks , especially for those servicemen and women who were jailed, , lost pensions , have criminal records(-the BBC news has a report on one guy was regestered as a sex offender for decades as he had kissed another guy) ,f*** em- get every penny you can. We served our Country, put our lives on the line and were treated as criminals, deviants, and third class citizens

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nickbrighton said:

I served in the RAF from 1980 to 1992. I joined when I was 18 I am gay, I knew it at the time. I also was asked if I was gay before I signed on, and it was made perfectly clear to me that being gay in the Military were simply not allowed and anyone found later would suffer severe consequences (Thrown out, Jail time, dishonourable discharge). During the first week at Basic Training, during one of the induction briefings (Held in the station cinema) with a couple of hundred recruits in attendance, one of the SNCO in charge came on stage and said "If any of you is a f***ing poof, get up and leave now, your enlistment will be cancelled , nothing on your record. This is the last chance, and to be clear, I dont want any f***ing poof in my Air Force".

I stayed and did not declare I was gay! I was bloody good at my job, and after 10 years or so, having served perfectly well in various locations (UK, Falklands, Cyprus) . I was promoted to JNCO level and was on the board for consideration as a SNCO

About this time I was "investigated" for homosexuality. I was pulled from my shift by RAF Police, shoved in an interrogation room, and basically given the third degree . My locker at work was searched, in full view of everyone, my room in the accom block was literally pulled apart

Being a JNCO I had younger airman under my command, 17 yr olds and up. They were all interviewed and basically "encouraged" to out me- my colleagues, friends and just about everyone else was interviewed by the RAF equivalent of CID. Thing Regan on a bad day from " The Sweeny"

The RAF Police couldn't find any "evidence" , no one outted me-mainly because I had never done anything with anyone. After a couple of weeks I was told no charges were being brought against me. I then had to go back to work as normal -not fun when the entire station knows what had just occured.

I then decided that enough was enough and I had to leave before I was found out. I had to work 18 months notice before I could leave. Less than a month before I left, one of my friends told me that a particularly nasty RAF Policeman had interviewed him saying "I want to get that gay bastard before he leaves"

Had I been charged it would have meant Court Martial , SIX months in military prison, dishonourable discharge, loss of 12 years pension

I was a lucky one, I managed to leave before being found out. I lost a career I loved and , was very good at, a way of life, friends and gave over a decade of Service

However, I KNEW before I signed up that i was not allowed, it was made very clear to me at the time and all the way through my time in the RAF.

Should I be entitled to compensation ? I wasn't thrown out, I left on my own accord, so I doubt I am included in the scheme anyway-though I will look into it. In my mind part of me says I knew what I was getting into, therefore I shouldnt be entitled to compensation. Anyone else who was gay also knew what they were signing up for. Another part of me thinks , especially for those servicemen and women who were jailed, , lost pensions , have criminal records(-the BBC news has a report on one guy was regestered as a sex offender for decades as he had kissed another guy) ,f*** em- get every penny you can. We served our Country, put our lives on the line and were treated as criminals, deviants, and third class citizens

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nickbrighton said:

I served in the RAF from 1980 to 1992. I joined when I was 18 I am gay, I knew it at the time. I also was asked if I was gay before I signed on, and it was made perfectly clear to me that being gay in the Military were simply not allowed and anyone found later would suffer severe consequences (Thrown out, Jail time, dishonourable discharge). During the first week at Basic Training, during one of the induction briefings (Held in the station cinema) with a couple of hundred recruits in attendance, one of the SNCO in charge came on stage and said "If any of you is a f***ing poof, get up and leave now, your enlistment will be cancelled , nothing on your record. This is the last chance, and to be clear, I dont want any f***ing poof in my Air Force".

I stayed and did not declare I was gay! I was bloody good at my job, and after 10 years or so, having served perfectly well in various locations (UK, Falklands, Cyprus) . I was promoted to JNCO level and was on the board for consideration as a SNCO

About this time I was "investigated" for homosexuality. I was pulled from my shift by RAF Police, shoved in an interrogation room, and basically given the third degree . My locker at work was searched, in full view of everyone, my room in the accom block was literally pulled apart

Being a JNCO I had younger airman under my command, 17 yr olds and up. They were all interviewed and basically "encouraged" to out me- my colleagues, friends and just about everyone else was interviewed by the RAF equivalent of CID. Thing Regan on a bad day from " The Sweeny"

The RAF Police couldn't find any "evidence" , no one outted me-mainly because I had never done anything with anyone. After a couple of weeks I was told no charges were being brought against me. I then had to go back to work as normal -not fun when the entire station knows what had just occured.

I then decided that enough was enough and I had to leave before I was found out. I had to work 18 months notice before I could leave. Less than a month before I left, one of my friends told me that a particularly nasty RAF Policeman had interviewed him saying "I want to get that gay bastard before he leaves"

Had I been charged it would have meant Court Martial , SIX months in military prison, dishonourable discharge, loss of 12 years pension

I was a lucky one, I managed to leave before being found out. I lost a career I loved and , was very good at, a way of life, friends and gave over a decade of Service

However, I KNEW before I signed up that i was not allowed, it was made very clear to me at the time and all the way through my time in the RAF.

Should I be entitled to compensation ? I wasn't thrown out, I left on my own accord, so I doubt I am included in the scheme anyway-though I will look into it. In my mind part of me says I knew what I was getting into, therefore I shouldnt be entitled to compensation. Anyone else who was gay also knew what they were signing up for. Another part of me thinks , especially for those servicemen and women who were jailed, , lost pensions , have criminal records(-the BBC news has a report on one guy was regestered as a sex offender for decades as he had kissed another guy) ,f*** em- get every penny you can. We served our Country, put our lives on the line and were treated as criminals, deviants, and third class citizens

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PascalGroß Tips said:

Wow ... what a powerful post. I read every word and just can't imagine how it must have been for you at the time.

A very good school friend of mine left school in 1978 aged 16 and went straight into the RAF. He was in the RAF until he was 40. I remember having a conversation/argument with him and another old school pal - whose father had been in the army - at a New Years Eve party in 1999. Both my friends agreed with the stance of not allowing anyone who was gay in the forces. They couldn't give me a good reason why that should be the case other than not being confident if having to fight alongside them not he battlefield. I still didn't get it and thought that reason was bollox.

My personal opinion is that anyone kicked out because of their sexuality, should be paid compensation. I don't care what the 'rules' were at the time. It was discrimination - pure and simple.

I can't imagine that the numbers who tried to play the system to 'get out' by 'coming out' were that great. Hopefully there would be checks and balances to make sure any compensation went to genuine cases.

And in regards to whether or not you should be entitled to compensation @nickbrighton - I would say yes ... given what you had to go through with the investigation and the constant homophobia that must have always been hovering in the background.

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nickbrighton said:

I served in the RAF from 1980 to 1992. I joined when I was 18 I am gay, I knew it at the time. I also was asked if I was gay before I signed on, and it was made perfectly clear to me that being gay in the Military were simply not allowed and anyone found later would suffer severe consequences (Thrown out, Jail time, dishonourable discharge). During the first week at Basic Training, during one of the induction briefings (Held in the station cinema) with a couple of hundred recruits in attendance, one of the SNCO in charge came on stage and said "If any of you is a f***ing poof, get up and leave now, your enlistment will be cancelled , nothing on your record. This is the last chance, and to be clear, I dont want any f***ing poof in my Air Force".

I stayed and did not declare I was gay! I was bloody good at my job, and after 10 years or so, having served perfectly well in various locations (UK, Falklands, Cyprus) . I was promoted to JNCO level and was on the board for consideration as a SNCO

About this time I was "investigated" for homosexuality. I was pulled from my shift by RAF Police, shoved in an interrogation room, and basically given the third degree . My locker at work was searched, in full view of everyone, my room in the accom block was literally pulled apart

Being a JNCO I had younger airman under my command, 17 yr olds and up. They were all interviewed and basically "encouraged" to out me- my colleagues, friends and just about everyone else was interviewed by the RAF equivalent of CID. Thing Regan on a bad day from " The Sweeny"

The RAF Police couldn't find any "evidence" , no one outted me-mainly because I had never done anything with anyone. After a couple of weeks I was told no charges were being brought against me. I then had to go back to work as normal -not fun when the entire station knows what had just occured.

I then decided that enough was enough and I had to leave before I was found out. I had to work 18 months notice before I could leave. Less than a month before I left, one of my friends told me that a particularly nasty RAF Policeman had interviewed him saying "I want to get that gay bastard before he leaves"

Had I been charged it would have meant Court Martial , SIX months in military prison, dishonourable discharge, loss of 12 years pension

I was a lucky one, I managed to leave before being found out. I lost a career I loved and , was very good at, a way of life, friends and gave over a decade of Service

However, I KNEW before I signed up that i was not allowed, it was made very clear to me at the time and all the way through my time in the RAF.

Should I be entitled to compensation ? I wasn't thrown out, I left on my own accord, so I doubt I am included in the scheme anyway-though I will look into it. In my mind part of me says I knew what I was getting into, therefore I shouldnt be entitled to compensation. Anyone else who was gay also knew what they were signing up for. Another part of me thinks , especially for those servicemen and women who were jailed, , lost pensions , have criminal records(-the BBC news has a report on one guy was regestered as a sex offender for decades as he had kissed another guy) ,f*** em- get every penny you can. We served our Country, put our lives on the line and were treated as criminals, deviants, and third class citizens

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lawros left foot said:

As I said in my earlier, post. I was a junior rate representative in a consultation thing the Admiralty did in 1990. One of the main reasons given then, this is by the Navy, I don’t know if it was tri-service, was that on long deployments to inhospitable areas, with little or no shore leave, a senior ranked homosexual could put pressure on a subordinate, and coerce them into a gay relationship. This was also given as a reason not to allow Wrens to go to sea.

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dazzer6666 said:

It's awful - I guess the issue is trying to distinguish those genuinely treated incredibly badly vs those to some degree abusing the system (as the OP suggests happened). Probably easier, cheaper and quicker to pay everyone.........

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TugWilson said:

Right from the start i will say , if your the best person for the job ( In this case the vital defence of our country ) i couldn`t care less what your sexual orientation is . The OP has made the most important points though , do we just pay out compo to everyone -including those that have abused the system in place to protect the genuine victims of abuse or discharge from the forces .

We live in a very greedy world and i for one would not like to see one injustice swapped for another , each case should be looked at individually and not just rely on one individual who sees an opportunity for a windfall . Otherwise victims of this miscarriage such as the officer in the OPs post will be reduced to just another claimant in a long line and not what he really is which is a person who has given 20 invaluable years of service only to be discarded .

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nickbrighton said:

I served in the RAF from 1980 to 1992. I joined when I was 18 I am gay, I knew it at the time. I also was asked if I was gay before I signed on, and it was made perfectly clear to me that being gay in the Military were simply not allowed and anyone found later would suffer severe consequences (Thrown out, Jail time, dishonourable discharge). During the first week at Basic Training, during one of the induction briefings (Held in the station cinema) with a couple of hundred recruits in attendance, one of the SNCO in charge came on stage and said "If any of you is a f***ing poof, get up and leave now, your enlistment will be cancelled , nothing on your record. This is the last chance, and to be clear, I dont want any f***ing poof in my Air Force".

I stayed and did not declare I was gay! I was bloody good at my job, and after 10 years or so, having served perfectly well in various locations (UK, Falklands, Cyprus) . I was promoted to JNCO level and was on the board for consideration as a SNCO

About this time I was "investigated" for homosexuality. I was pulled from my shift by RAF Police, shoved in an interrogation room, and basically given the third degree . My locker at work was searched, in full view of everyone, my room in the accom block was literally pulled apart

Being a JNCO I had younger airman under my command, 17 yr olds and up. They were all interviewed and basically "encouraged" to out me- my colleagues, friends and just about everyone else was interviewed by the RAF equivalent of CID. Thing Regan on a bad day from " The Sweeny"

The RAF Police couldn't find any "evidence" , no one outted me-mainly because I had never done anything with anyone. After a couple of weeks I was told no charges were being brought against me. I then had to go back to work as normal -not fun when the entire station knows what had just occured.

I then decided that enough was enough and I had to leave before I was found out. I had to work 18 months notice before I could leave. Less than a month before I left, one of my friends told me that a particularly nasty RAF Policeman had interviewed him saying "I want to get that gay bastard before he leaves"

Had I been charged it would have meant Court Martial , SIX months in military prison, dishonourable discharge, loss of 12 years pension

I was a lucky one, I managed to leave before being found out. I lost a career I loved and , was very good at, a way of life, friends and gave over a decade of Service

However, I KNEW before I signed up that i was not allowed, it was made very clear to me at the time and all the way through my time in the RAF.

Should I be entitled to compensation ? I wasn't thrown out, I left on my own accord, so I doubt I am included in the scheme anyway-though I will look into it. In my mind part of me says I knew what I was getting into, therefore I shouldnt be entitled to compensation. Anyone else who was gay also knew what they were signing up for. Another part of me thinks , especially for those servicemen and women who were jailed, , lost pensions , have criminal records(-the BBC news has a report on one guy was regestered as a sex offender for decades as he had kissed another guy) ,f*** em- get every penny you can. We served our Country, put our lives on the line and were treated as criminals, deviants, and third class citizens

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