[Travel] Rail nationalisation.

Leekbrookgull · Dec 4, 2024

Maybe like a few i can remember the days of British Rail and let's face it wasn't great at the best of times. So and i believe that South West Trains has become the first private operator to back into government ownership, now we travel back to Sussex around twice a month and ok it's advanced tickets all in AWC, Tube and Southern anything from £45/65 and round trip of 500 mls and under 4 hrs more often than not. If i drove i spend more time driving plus fuel costs, so from our POV it's hard to see how it can improve. As for GBR won't the management team be ex employees from the former private companies who might have some idea of what they are doing rather than a complete novice ? I am personally not convinced one way or another if the actual service will improve. Your thoughts.

Chicken Run · Dec 4, 2024

Leekbrookgull said:
Maybe like a few i can remember the days of British Rail and let's face it wasn't great at the best of times. So and i believe that South West Trains has become the first private operator to back into government ownership, now we travel back to Sussex around twice a month and ok it's advanced tickets all in AWC, Tube and Southern anything from £45/65 and round trip of 500 mls and under 4 hrs more often than not. If i drove i spend more time driving plus fuel costs, so from our POV it's hard to see how it can improve. As for GBR won't the management team be ex employees from the former private companies who might have some idea of what they are doing rather than a complete novice ? I am personally not convinced one way or another if the actual service will improve. Your thoughts.

South West Trains are not the first private operator back into Government Ownership, there are quite a few, google it and you’ll surprise yourself

Deportivo Seagull · Dec 4, 2024

Leekbrookgull said:
Maybe like a few i can remember the days of British Rail and let's face it wasn't great at the best of times. So and i believe that South West Trains has become the first private operator to back into government ownership, now we travel back to Sussex around twice a month and ok it's advanced tickets all in AWC, Tube and Southern anything from £45/65 and round trip of 500 mls and under 4 hrs more often than not. If i drove i spend more time driving plus fuel costs, so from our POV it's hard to see how it can improve. As for GBR won't the management team be ex employees from the former private companies who might have some idea of what they are doing rather than a complete novice ? I am personally not convinced one way or another if the actual service will improve. Your thoughts.

if you are happy to buy tickets well in advance then maybe but if you need to buy a week before you go then the pricing is eye watering. it’s a public service Infrastructure which should be affordable to the masses, it should never have been a money making service. You can add the utilities into this as well.

Tom Hark Preston Park · Dec 4, 2024

It's only when you take a train just about anywhere outside of the UK that you fully appreciate how much you're being ripped off in the UK

Beach Hut · Dec 4, 2024

Good to see the money tree shaken again as taxpayers will no doubt be responsible for the deficits in pension funds due to the colossal wages demanded by unions for train drivers

Guy Fawkes · Dec 4, 2024

The rail operators they are claiming this back from are the operators who won the franchise rights to run the rail on behalf of the Government for a fixed term, and had to follow rules set by the Government on how they ran and operated the services they provided.

The thought was that they would provide the levels of investment required to modernise the network (replacing slam door carriages, etc) and to be able to deliver this for less than it would cost the Government to do the same, even though the franchise operators would take some profit for running them.

Government run services have annual budgets, which they have to spend so it doesn't promote efficiency and finding savings as they will still have to spend that cash by years end anyway, even if on stuff that's not really required. (eg. when i worked in the public service, there was a year when a lot of computer towers were purchased to use up the budget, which were put into storage and never issued before eventually being disposed of - they weren't required and the way our services are run means that saved money isn't rolled over or even encouraged and leads to poor value contracts from suppliers who can charge a premium as they are tied into a contract to supply, and means that the public service are unable to shop around and go elsewhere which would be cheaper) That's where a lot of savings are made and where the profit / fee that the operators make comes from.

One of the biggest issues affecting the network is that it was built in a time when the population was a lot smaller, so hasn't the capacity really required in the modern era. Whoever runs it, that fact will not change that and by changing it, we won't suddenly add new routes, or increased capacity, to the network etc...

beorhthelm · Dec 4, 2024

what this really means is rail formally becomes nationalised. the actual rail network was couple of decades back and most the train operators are service management or already directly DoT controlled. only a handful are private. they all lose money either way.

the only hope this will change ticketing to simplfy across the network. as far as i'm aware the byzantine ticket system was there before privatisation, each area having its peculiar arrangements which harked back to the original companies that built the rail in the first place. this could have been changed by DoT over the years but hasn't been, i wonder if they'll do so now or find some reason it cant be.

Brovion · Dec 4, 2024

I know the defenders of privitisation always like to say that we look back at the days of British Rail with rose-tinted spectacles, but actually at the end it was turning into a really effective organisation. The reason for this is that they'd moved away from Regions (Southern Western, etc) and into a process called Sectorisation. Under the old regional way the railway wasn't truly 'British' as each region was a law unto itself with its own practices, locomotives and rolling stock.

When Bob Reid took over he reorganised the railways into five sectors: InterCity, London and South East, and Provincial were for passengers, and Freight and Parcels for goods. InterCity and the two freight sector were supposed to make a profit, but it was accepted that the other passenger services were the 'social' railway, there to provide a service. This was in 1982. Obviously there were many setback and false starts and it took a while for it to settle in - not least because there was a lot of entrenched opposition from managers who wanted it to fail as they preferred the old ways, but, by the early 1990s BR had been transformed. Then the Tory bastards wrecked it for nothing more than ideological reasons. John Major should be as hated as much as Dr Beeching.

If anyone is interested I thoroughly recommend the book 'British Rail - A New History' by Christian Wolmar. A warning though, it is incredibly depressing and it doesn't have a happy ending - but you will find out what we lost when BR disappeared.

fly high · Dec 4, 2024

Tom Hark Preston Park said:
It's only when you take a train just about anywhere outside of the UK that you fully appreciate how much you're being ripped off in the UK

Rail fares to rise despite renationalisation plans

Three rail operators will be renationalised next year but fares are due to go up as outlined in the Budget.

www.bbc.co.uk

And not about to get lower any time soon, in fact just the opposite. Transport Secretary Heidi Alexander said she recognised that "affordability is really important to people" but that people were "willing to pay for a good service".

Tom Hark Preston Park · Dec 4, 2024

fly high said:
Rail fares to rise despite renationalisation plans

Three rail operators will be renationalised next year but fares are due to go up as outlined in the Budget.

www.bbc.co.uk

And not about to get lower any time soon, in fact just the opposite. Transport Secretary Heidi Alexander said she recognised that "affordability is really important to people" but that people were "willing to pay for a good service".

It'll never be acceptable to normal people that it can cost hundreds of quid for a ticket from London to Manchester or Newcastle. Those fares are aimed at people submitting the cost of their tickets to the expenses department of their large company who will in tutn pass it on to their customers. Would they pay it if it was coming out of their own pocket? Would they f***

Notters · Dec 4, 2024

Chicken Run said:
South West Trains are not the first private operator back into Government Ownership, there are quite a few, google it and you’ll surprise yourself

It's the way the Tory media keeps reporting it to be fair, it's the 'First under this government'...

But GNER has been Nationalised for some time (and by all accounts has been going from strength to strength, though is ludicrously expensive).

Notters · Dec 4, 2024

Tom Hark Preston Park said:
It'll never be acceptable to normal people that it can cost hundreds of quid for a ticket from London to Manchester or Newcastle. These fares are aimed at people submitting the cost of those tickets to the expenses department of their large company. Would they pay it if it was coming out of their own pocket? Would they f***

Yup - we always drive from Leeds to London. It's frustrating as the trains are comfortable, fast and reliable, but they cost 5-10 times as much for a family trip.

Stumpy Tim · Dec 4, 2024

Also, people often don't realise that a lot of our railways are run by government. Just not our government

Notters · Dec 4, 2024

Stumpy Tim said:
Also, people often don't realised that a lot of our railways are run by government. Just not our government

See also, electricity, water, etc.

Guy Fawkes · Dec 4, 2024

Tom Hark Preston Park said:
It's only when you take a train just about anywhere outside of the UK that you fully appreciate how much you're being ripped off in the UK

If train operators are losing money, despite these high fees, then you have to ask why?

And also ask how changing the people running it will change it will suddenly make it affordable to users of the network without adding massively to either the national debt (taking money away from other services) or by cutting investment in the network?

Decades of neglect and underinvestment whilst in public ownership before probably had a lot to do with the high costs we face now as investment had to be found to upgrade everything left in a sorry state whilst Government owned and operated - Why will it be different this time around ?
Or in 20, 30 or 50 years time, when they've been neglected once again, will we be in the same position where it has to go into franchise hands again to fund the improvements that the Government can't deliver?

Shins · Dec 4, 2024

Leekbrookgull said:
Maybe like a few i can remember the days of British Rail and let's face it wasn't great at the best of times. So and i believe that South West Trains has become the first private operator to back into government ownership, now we travel back to Sussex around twice a month and ok it's advanced tickets all in AWC, Tube and Southern anything from £45/65 and round trip of 500 mls and under 4 hrs more often than not. If i drove i spend more time driving plus fuel costs, so from our POV it's hard to see how it can improve. As for GBR won't the management team be ex employees from the former private companies who might have some idea of what they are doing rather than a complete novice ? I am personally not convinced one way or another if the actual service will improve. Your thoughts.

I work in the rail industry and will ultimately form part of GBR so can answer some of this.

So GBR will mainly be formed of Network Rail (maintains tracks) and Rail Delivery Group (owns National Rail Enquiries, Railcards and runs vital back office shared systems). Before Labour won the election, the tories were nationalising the rail all but in name. There were chances there would be contracts for train companies purely to run trains, on time. Payment would have been subject to that success. That would have meant retail and other back office roles from train companies would probably have been consumed by GBR. As with any amalgamation of organisations you need less, so I imagine there would have been quite a fair amount of job losses, especially after the dust had settled. But drivers and engineers etc would probably been ok under any new franchise.

Now that Labour will put their stamp on GBR and everything is becoming nationalised, including the running of trains, the franchise contracts will slowly come to end (they are staggered), and so train companies drivers, engineers etc will also come under GBR. Only an assumption on my part, but these roles will be safer and the retail and back office roles might be more in danger. Same as with Network Rail and Rail Delivery Group, some roles might not need duplication.

I think its pretty disingenuous for anyone to suggest that your average ticket can be made cheaper by making efficiencies / cost savings. The majority of rail costs are track and line maintenance and I don't see these coming down however the industry is run. It's one of the oldest systems in the world and is also not like you get in other places in the world, a straight line. Europe also have a lot of government subsidies that aren't mentioned when comparing prices. If the public want much cheaper prices then the government will have to pick up the bill. They would either need to take the loss and balance the books elsewhere, or determine that there is a business case that increased usage will increase spend in communities, increase jobs etc etc would ultimately mean money back. Hopefully any profit made from ticket sales versus all other costs are injected back into improvements that at least give some more value for money against what is seen as high cost (I think it is). I think I've done the maths before and if you took a significant profit and divided it by the ridiculous amount of ticket sales per year, you would get an insignificant saving if you reduced the ticket price by operating at zero profit. I really mean insignificant. That being said we should always try and reduce costs and be more efficient in every way and pass on savings.

Government can help GBR by paying for stuff and then not meddling and changing scope. Allowing rail professionals to have a good roadmap of customer improvements. Ticketing is certainly one of those, ensuring the cheapest price is always shown. One thing you might have noticed recently is a return cost is split into two legs, half each way. before is used to be like 90% was loaded up front to the outward journey. Too many things to properly go into but long story short, we're trying.

Hope that helps.

(Not a train geek stumbled into it by accident)

Shins · Dec 4, 2024

beorhthelm said:
what this really means is rail formally becomes nationalised. the actual rail network was couple of decades back and most the train operators are service management or already directly DoT controlled. only a handful are private. they all lose money either way.

the only hope this will change ticketing to simplfy across the network. as far as i'm aware the byzantine ticket system was there before privatisation, each area having its peculiar arrangements which harked back to the original companies that built the rail in the first place. this could have been changed by DoT over the years but hasn't been, i wonder if they'll do so now or find some reason it cant be.

Everything has really been DfT controlled since covid. As the passenger numbers went south they had to to underpin everything. Numbers still aren't where they were before.

Ticketing is an incredible mess to untangle, genuinely. GBR will be better placed to dictate how and when to attempt to address it. Not sure anyone had the money or power or will to address under the franchise system.

Weststander · Dec 4, 2024

Rail fares won't fall and future annual rises won't be at a lower level. No one credible claims that, the government aren't.

People need to erase that from their guessing. Running and improving railway is an incredibly expensive business, particularly for the first in the world, routes almost 200 years old boxed in by huge cities and towns.

Excluding HS2, in 2023/24 total rail industry income including from the public purse was £25.4b plus £2.3b, only £10.4b of that came from fares. £165m was paid in dividends representing 0.6% of the £27.7b.

I'm pro one railways entity owning it all, for common sense and the end of faux competition. Preferably by the public.

Tom Hark Preston Park · Dec 4, 2024

Shins said:
I work in the rail industry and will ultimately form part of GBR so can answer some of this.

So GBR will mainly be formed of Network Rail (maintains tracks) and Rail Delivery Group (owns National Rail Enquiries, Railcards and runs vital back office shared systems). Before Labour won the election, the tories were nationalising the rail all but in name. There were chances there would be contracts for train companies purely to run trains, on time. Payment would have been subject to that success. That would have meant retail and other back office roles from train companies would probably have been consumed by GBR. As with any amalgamation of organisations you need to less, so I imagine there would have been quite a fair amount of job losses, especially after the dust had settled. But drivers and engineers etc would probably been ok under any new franchise.

Now that Labour will put their stamp on GBR and everything is becoming nationalised, including the running of trains, the franchise contracts will slowly come to end (they are staggered), and so train companies drivers, engineers etc will also come under GBR. Only an assumption on my part, but these roles will be safer and the retail and back office roles might be more in danger. Same as with Network Rail and Rail Delivery Group, some roles might not need duplication.

I think its pretty disingenuous for anyone to suggest that your average ticket can be made cheaper by making efficiencies / cost savings. The majority of rail costs are track and line maintenance and I don't see these coming down however the industry is run. It's one of the oldest systems in the world and is also not like you get in other places in the world, a straight line. Europe also have a lot of government subsidies that aren't mentioned when comparing prices. If the public want much cheaper prices then the government will have to pick up the bill. They would either need to take the loss and balance the books elsewhere, or determine that there is a business case that increased usage will increase spend in communities, increase jobs etc etc would ultimately mean money back. Hopefully any profit made from ticket sales versus all other costs are injected back into improvements that at least give some more value for money against what is seen as high cost (I think it is). I think I've done the maths before and if you took a significant profit and divided it by the ridiculous amount of ticket sales per year, you would get an insignificant saving if you reduced the ticket price by operating at zero profit. I really mean insignificant. That being said we should always try and reduce costs and be more efficient in every way and pass on savings.

Government can help GBR by paying for stuff and then not meddling and changing scope. Allowing rail professionals to have a good roadmap of customer improvements. Ticketing is certainly one of those, ensuring the cheapest price is always shown. One thing you might have noticed recently is a return cost is split into two legs, half each way. before is used to be like 90% was loaded up front to the outward journey. Too many things to properly go into but long story short, we're trying.

Hope that helps.

(Not a train geek stumbled into it by accident)

TL;DR sadly

Bodian · Dec 4, 2024

SWT made a profit last year I think.

Future profits will now be re-invested in the network instead of being siphoned off to shareholders or overseas companies.

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[Travel] Rail nationalisation.

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