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[Misc] Brighton climbing the crime table, will Crime Crushers make a difference?



albionalba

albionalba

Football with optimism
NSC Patron
Aug 31, 2023
279
sadly in Scotland
'No shit Sherlock' you might say to the above statement as shown on https://crimespotlight.uk/ but where do we go next so that reporting a crime turns into real action that reduces re-occurence? Nearly everyone knows someone affected by crime that has led to inaction / no resolution. I'm sure there are other NSC threads that have chewed this over but couldn't see anywhere where this fitted.

I saw this table in connection with the newish Crime Crushers initiative. https://crushcrime.org/ and I believe there are other crime data collection initiatives in progress.

Be interested in perspectives on this. One of the lead figures is apparently the person who successfully led the XL Bully Dog Ban campaign. I think they are using the 'Vote Leave' concept of very simple messaging designed to appeal to many.

The goals are claimed to be:
  1. Jail career criminals who generate most crime — 1 in ten commit over half all crimes but the system does not target them.
  2. Toughen up sentences.
  3. Build more prison places and secure hospital places.
  4. Huge growth in court capacity to crush the court backlogs
  5. Reverse the collapse of the entire justice system — prisons, courts, police etc.
No hope? or possible turning point? Are there any economists who could show that rather than have the constant focus on economic growth interventions a huge public investment here could generate wider economic and social benefits? Or will such initiatives always fall foul of alternative, socially-motivated policies?

I'm open minded (but have certainly experienced the police / courts inaction / congestion problems and felt underserved by the authorities) - though it doesn't take much for something like this to tip into an excuse to target vulnerable groups.
 




el punal

el punal

Well-known member
Aug 29, 2012
12,606
The dull part of the south coast
We could transport all the criminals to Australia, that seemed to work before. Is hanging still an option for more minor offences, you know, like not paying parking fines or dropping litter?
 


B

BevBHA

Well-known member
Jan 23, 2017
2,568
Working in retail in the centre of town me and my team report 5+ incidents a day. From shop lifting, to abuse, to assault. My security guard was knocked out cold last week. Police only ever come if it’s an incident like that and even then, statements taken, cctv burnt, nothing. Nothing ever comes of it. That’s why crime in retail especially is spiralling out of control simply because there are no repercussions. I could attribute half of all our shop lifters and incidents to the same 10-20 people. I have given police whole files of cctv of 10+ occasions of one person, still you see them in stealing every single day.
 


GT49er

GT49er

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Feb 1, 2009
49,442
Gloucester
albionalba said:
The goals are claimed to be:
  1. Jail career criminals who generate most crime — 1 in ten commit over half all crimes but the system does not target them.
  2. Toughen up sentences.
  3. Build more prison places and secure hospital places.
  4. Huge growth in court capacity to crush the court backlogs
  5. Reverse the collapse of the entire justice system — prisons, courts, police etc.
Click to expand...
Nothing wrong with the objectives per se, but doubts about the practicalities. 'Just build more prisons' is, to say the least, a bit simplistic; apart from anything else, recruiting more decent prison officers is a tall order! Goal no.1 in particular is very valid - all too often the real top dog villains get away with it, whilst the easy targets get prosecuted, fined and/or banged up.
Expect knee-jerk shouts of 'Daily Mail!', 'Gammon' and other terms depicting righteous indignation any time soon anyway!
 


Gabbiano

Gabbiano

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2017
1,786
Spank the Manc
albionalba said:
'No shit Sherlock' you might say to the above statement as shown on https://crimespotlight.uk/ but where do we go next so that reporting a crime turns into real action that reduces re-occurence? Nearly everyone knows someone affected by crime that has led to inaction / no resolution. I'm sure there are other NSC threads that have chewed this over but couldn't see anywhere where this fitted.

I saw this table in connection with the newish Crime Crushers initiative. https://crushcrime.org/ and I believe there are other crime data collection initiatives in progress.

Be interested in perspectives on this. One of the lead figures is apparently the person who successfully led the XL Bully Dog Ban campaign. I think they are using the 'Vote Leave' concept of very simple messaging designed to appeal to many.

The goals are claimed to be:
  1. Jail career criminals who generate most crime — 1 in ten commit over half all crimes but the system does not target them.
  2. Toughen up sentences.
  3. Build more prison places and secure hospital places.
  4. Huge growth in court capacity to crush the court backlogs
  5. Reverse the collapse of the entire justice system — prisons, courts, police etc.
No hope? or possible turning point? Are there any economists who could show that rather than have the constant focus on economic growth interventions a huge public investment here could generate wider economic and social benefits? Or will such initiatives always fall foul of alternative, socially-motivated policies?

I'm open minded (but have certainly experienced the police / courts inaction / congestion problems and felt underserved by the authorities) - though it doesn't take much for something like this to tip into an excuse to target vulnerable groups.
Click to expand...
Extremely weird that that list is organised by parliamentary constituency.

Surely using actual policing jurisdictions would make far more sense, and then perhaps sorting per capita?

Large, dense cities with greater internal inequality have more crime. Who'd have thought.
 




Albion my Albion

Albion my Albion

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Feb 6, 2016
19,919
Indiana, USA
el punal said:
We could transport all the criminals to Australia, that seemed to work before. Is hanging still an option for more minor offences, you know, like not paying parking fines or dropping litter?
Click to expand...

In America we allow everybody to own guns and that seems to solve all the issues with crime and violence. Unless you are in a school.
 


D

Da Man Clay

T'Blades
Dec 16, 2004
16,287
Some of the research is pretty patchy and a little naive. For example, reading between the lines they seem to suggest that because the city of London had a 90% reduction after a specific operation that could be comparable elsewhere. It isn’t. It’s difficult to work out how they quantify some of the conclusions they’ve made.

All over the goals are relatively obvious but require some hugely substantial funding. I'm also not overly convinced locking up a drug dependant habitual shoplifter for years for example is really how we want to fill our limited prison capacity. Like a lot of these sort of things it’s a laudable series of intentions lacking on any practical detail or roadmap to get there.
 






Thunder Bolt

Thunder Bolt

Silly old bat
Aug 18, 2009
68,167
Beside the seaside, beside the sea
5. Reducing the police force by 22,000 and closing 50% of all magistrates courts, selling off the buildings (where did the money go?) between 2010 and 2015.

Yes, the justice system has collapsed but it needs money to rebuild it again.
 


A1X

A1X

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Sep 1, 2017
20,796
Deepest, darkest Sussex
Is there a Crime Europe Tracker?
 


albionalba

albionalba

Football with optimism
NSC Patron
Aug 31, 2023
279
sadly in Scotland
GT49er said:
'Just build more prisons' is, to say the least, a bit simplistic
Click to expand...
Yes I agree, but having been slowly convinced after the fact on the effectiveness of a few things that have had simplistic messaging, it seems that could be the answer. The post US election post mortem by the dems is gradually realising that the simpler rep campaign around cost of living being too high was what resonated and even those who knew Trump was what he is were happy to sign up because of that (and the last ditch dumping of Biden etc). Likewise the Vote Leave simple slogans that were largely untrue pushed the vote along in their favour. Basically ignore simple messaging at your peril otherwise you could end up like me having my head in the sand by arrogantly thinking there's enough of us who know better and understand all the nuances etc.

Thunder Bolt said:
Yes, the justice system has collapsed but it needs money to rebuild it again.
Click to expand...
It does. It needs serious money. I think that's why this campaign aims to build momentum ahead of the Spring Spending Review to try to influence priorities.
 




G

Greg Bobkin

Silver Seagull
May 22, 2012
16,280
This next crime could be crime table-defining.

We're loose.
 




Javeaseagull

Javeaseagull

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Feb 22, 2014
2,865
Many years ago I knew an ex-policemen because our lads were involved with U11 cricket at our local club. Having a beer after training he said to me once that if the police in Spelthorne were to pick up 5 individuals it would virtually wipe out crime in the borough. It can’t be done of course, can you imagine the outcry. Since then I have often thought that crime is a huge industry in itself. Not just the criminals, they play a part but the business that is created by crime is enormous. The police, the courts, the lawyers, the conveyancing of people to court, the jails that hold people awaiting “Justice” and many others profit from crime. Follow the money.
 




Thunder Bolt

Thunder Bolt

Silly old bat
Aug 18, 2009
68,167
Beside the seaside, beside the sea
Javeaseagull said:
Many years ago I knew an ex-policemen because our lads were involved with U11 cricket at our local club. Having a beer after training he said to me once that if the police in Spelthorne were to pick up 5 individuals it would virtually wipe out crime in the borough. It can’t be done of course, can you imagine the outcry. Since then I have often thought that crime is a huge industry in itself. Not just the criminals, they play a part but the business that is created by crime is enormous. The police, the courts, the lawyers, the conveyancing of people to court, the jails that hold people awaiting “Justice” and many others profit from crime. Follow the money.
Click to expand...
The Civil Service aren't well paid. They are paid less than the equivalent in the private sector. Transport is G4 (owned by ?)
 


B

Brovion

In my defence, I was left unsupervised.
NSC Patron
Jul 6, 2003
19,957
Thunder Bolt said:
5. Reducing the police force by 22,000 and closing 50% of all magistrates courts, selling off the buildings (where did the money go?) between 2010 and 2015.

Yes, the justice system has collapsed but it needs money to rebuild it again.
Click to expand...
Exactly. "Defund the Police" was official Tory party policy long before it became an American activist slogan. And while you're at it defund the courts and prison services too. No point in having systems for processing criminals if we're not catching them. And yes, I accept it's not as 'Daily Mail' simple as saying "Build more prisons, employ more police". But it is part of the problem.

I'm slightly jaundiced at the moment as a couple of weeks ago I had my car stolen from in front of my house. My sole contact with the police was filling in an on-line form, and getting an email with a Crime Reference number for the insurers. The email also said they weren't going to investigate and the case was closed. I wasn't expecting them to send a team of detectives up to Fiveways and/or set up an Incident Room, but I thought they might be interested in getting a little bit more information.
 




albionalba

albionalba

Football with optimism
NSC Patron
Aug 31, 2023
279
sadly in Scotland
Brovion said:
I'm slightly jaundiced at the moment as a couple of weeks ago I had my car stolen from in front of my house.
Click to expand...
Sorry to hear that - but sadly that lack of interest / response is such a common story. And it's not because the police are busy catching shoplifters as BevBHA pointed out:
BevBHA said:
Working in retail in the centre of town me and my team report 5+ incidents a day.
Click to expand...
And I'm sure it isn't as simple as implied by Crush Crime - but it feels like we could descend into lawlessness - I think one of the recent Grace novels had a vigilante gang working in Brighton.....
 






happypig

happypig

Staring at the rude boys
May 23, 2009
8,216
Eastbourne
Da Man Clay said:
I'm also not overly convinced locking up a drug dependant habitual shoplifter for years for example is really how we want to fill our limited prison capacity.
Click to expand...

Curing addiction is far more successful in preventing re-offending than sending addicts to prison for "minor" crimes. Unfortunately we have had populist ministers for the last 14 years who say what people want to hear and that's mostly "lock them up".
We need to have a grown up debate about drugs and start treating addiction as a medical rather than a criminal issue (do this and a reduction in crime will follow). We need to invest money in addiction treatment, not just illegal drugs, but alcohol too.
 


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