[News] Is Britain work shy ?

Harry Wilson's tackle · Nov 28, 2024

South Stand Bonfire said:
I delivered leaflets. You could deliver them at your own time/pace within certain parameters. The earlier in the morning you got up to deliver them though , the easier it was to walk across people’s gardens without being moaned at. Pay was about £5 per thousand in the early 80s from memory. There were two big houses in Seaford that had very long driveways. One next to Seaford Head golf course. In hindsight they were lucky to get them delivered to their houses.Bast@@@s!!

My daughter briefly pre COVID was paid the equivalent of £15 /hour for putting sorting leaflets at home before someone else took them out to be delivered.

I had a Saturday shopping job that I picked up on the back of good work done for someone during cubs' bob-a-job week. I was age nine. Two and six for the work (equivalent to about 50p an hour - pretty generous for 1967).

I did that till I was 12 when the job ended, so I got a morning paper round. Six days a week, 70p a week. About 5p an hour. Mill House post office. f***ing horrible job.

When I was 14 I got an evening and weekend job at George the Chemist in Portslade. 25P an hour. I did that till I was 17, and it was clearly affecting my school work. No pay rises in 3 years. Exploitation or what? And I worked illegally as a dispenser's assistant from age 14. Pass the tincture of morphine, James (some of you may remember James the dispenser)! And people complained about union power in the 1970s. The only way to get anything out of the bosses was to be in a strong union. Fancy that!.

On the back of that I dissuaded my son from doing part time work while at school. Maybe that was a mistake. But I got quite ill when doing the paper round. It was exhausting doing these flats (no lifts) in Foredown Road:

And the evening job was when I should have been relaxing before doing homework (5-7 pm every weeknight) and the Saturday job stopped me going to the Goldstone, except for 7.40 evening kick offs).

I managed to save up £40. It took years. I bought a PA amp for my band. A few years later it was stolen. I was gutted. Hundreds of horrible hours working as a kid, up in smoke.

About 5 years ago I got over it, though.

I'm 66 now :lolol:

Paulie Gualtieri · Nov 28, 2024

First job was actually being paid to DJ at school discos, £50 a night for 3 hours work, loverly stuff. Managed to get some private work out of this as well so didn’t really need a proper job in the early teen years.

Later on, the school forged a partnership for a load of seasonal roles at a local factory basically packing Xmas gift sets (food, fragrances, alcohol) I’m not sure of the legalities of this arrangement, we were paid in cash, no contract was signed, no training and there was a few instances where alcohol was misplaced on the factory floor and the owner locked us in and said no one was leaving until someone owned up. He was quickly reminded that holding children hostage whilst working potentially illegally trumpeted the misplacement of a few Moet gift sets.

Got a regular job after this operation ceased

Harry Wilson's tackle · Nov 28, 2024

Commander said:
I think ‘work shy’ is completely the wrong term. My ire certainly isn’t aimed at people like you.

The issue I have found as an employer is not that people don’t want to work. We have never found it difficult to get a stream of young people through the door for interviews. The problem is that they are so ill-equipped for the workplace, presumably because what they have been taught at school / uni / by their parents etc. They think it is going to be completely different to how it is, and cannot cope when it isn’t, or when it isn’t immediately plain sailing. I think they do their dissertation at Uni on the working culture at Google or Netflix and then walk into a 20 person company in Brighton and expect to find sleep pods and mental health spaces. They don’t seem to like competition either, and think everyone should be equal from day one, and can’t fathom why someone higher in the company works to different rules to them

The Gen Zers have been absolutely failed by education and society, and I think it is going to take a long time for the problem to be sorted out. Either that or a sustained period of adversity (war!). I’m sure a lot of it comes from the ‘medal for everyone’ culture that we seem to have somehow created. My kids’ school is doing away with prizes for sporting achievement on sports day in 2025, and instead it is going to be based on the kids showing ‘core values’ throughout the year. Seriously. What kind of message does that teach children? It’s no wonder they come into the work place completely ill-equipped to succeed.

I hear you.

However....I am a problem-solver so here is something to ponder.

Just as the phenotype of the job seeker has now changed, the phenotype of many employers has stood still.

If you expect new recruits to fit into a work culture created 5, 10 or more years ago, maybe the problem is you.

Chang is inevitable and we either embrace it and find a way to work around it, or we fail.

And I say that as someone who hates change (part of my autistic brain-wiring). I have had changed forced upon me and my usual reaction is to kick and scream until I'm sick. But after I have dried my sheets, I have learned to quickly look at how to make change work for me.

If your new recruits can't cope with being dropped into your work culture, why not create an induction? You could make it entertaining. Explain how what you do makes sense, and how they need to adapt to fit in.

In in the meantime why not think about the expectations of the newbies and consider how (heaven forefend) you might be able to meet them?

Or you could just torch the place. Let's embrace a bit of Tom Waits ("Frank's wild years")

One night, Frank was on his way home from work, stopped at the liquor store. Picked up a couple Mickey's Big Mouths, drank 'em in the car on his way to the Shell station. He got a gallon of gas in a can. Drove home, doused everything in the house, torched it, parked across the street, laughing, watching it burn, all Halloween orange and chimney red. Then Frank put on a top 40-station, got on the Hollywood Freeway, and headed north....

cheshunt seagull · Nov 28, 2024

My first job was in the Easter holidays in 1975. Liftman at Hills of Hove for 40p an hour. If any of you took that lift at that time, it was me that announced that ladies lingerie was on floor one.

abc · Nov 28, 2024

Mellor 3 Ward 4 said:
I believe that it is, or soon will be, within a person's rights to request at least hybrid working frm day 1.

Indeed but having a right to ask (and why 'asking' has to be legislated for is beyond me) is not the same has having a 'right' to work from home. This individual asked, he was told no, he didn't like the answer so left and is now living off benefits at the taxpayer's expense.

Commander · Nov 28, 2024

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
I hear you.

However....I am a problem-solver so here is something to ponder.

Just as the phenotype of the job seeker has now changed, the phenotype of many employers has stood still.

If you expect new recruits to fit into a work culture created 5, 10 or more years ago, maybe the problem is you.

Chang is inevitable and we either embrace it and find a way to work around it, or we fail.

And I say that as someone who hates change (part of my autistic brain-wiring). I have had changed forced upon me and my usual reaction is to kick and scream until I'm sick. But after I have dried my sheets, I have learned to quickly look at how to make change work for me.

If your new recruits can't cope with being dropped into your work culture, why not create an induction? You could make it entertaining. Explain how what you do makes sense, and how they need to adapt to fit in.

In in the meantime why not think about the expectations of the newbies and consider how (heaven forefend) you might be able to meet them?

Or you could just torch the place. Let's embrace a bit of Tom Waits ("Frank's wild years")

One night, Frank was on his way home from work, stopped at the liquor store. Picked up a couple Mickey's Big Mouths, drank 'em in the car on his way to the Shell station. He got a gallon of gas in a can. Drove home, doused everything in the house, torched it, parked across the street, laughing, watching it burn, all Halloween orange and chimney red. Then Frank put on a top 40-station, got on the Hollywood Freeway, and headed north....

I have pondered a lot of what you say here many times. Re the induction, we did all this and couldn't have made things any clearer all through the interview stage and through the induction. But what people say through that process is very different to what people actually do when it becomes real.

Our work culture involved bean bags, break out spaces, unlimited annual leave, a pool table, a free bar on Fridays, swanky lunches out every two months for top performers, trips to Marbella for top performers, even a £10K holiday to the Maldives for the top performer of the year. On top of a package that a 22 year old 2nd jobber would earn £50-£60K in their 2nd year if they did relatively well, through our amazing commission scheme. It wasn't enough, unfortunately. Because we expected people to work more than a standard 9-5 in return for all that. And people didn't want to do that. It made us 'dinosaurs' apparently as we didn't want people working from home because we wanted a sales buzz in the office with people learning and bouncing off each other.

So now I am doing the same thing in South Africa, but with basically none of the above. But with people who are absolutely buzzing to have an opportunity where if they go above and beyond they can make some extra money to help their family / church etc. For about a quarter the price, and with about 1% of the issues of doing it in Brighton.

Sad state of affairs really. But hey ho. Means I get to work from home and walk the dog 5 miles a day at 11am rather than dealing with some Gen Zers mental health challenges.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Nov 28, 2024

Commander said:
I have pondered a lot of what you say here many times. Re the induction, we did all this and couldn't have made things any clearer all through the interview stage and through the induction. But what people say through that process is very different to what people actually do when it becomes real.

Our work culture involved bean bags, break out spaces, unlimited annual leave, a pool table, a free bar on Fridays, swanky lunches out every two months for top performers, trips to Marbella for top performers, even a £10K holiday to the Maldives for the top performer of the year. On top of a package that a 22 year old 2nd jobber would earn £50-£60K in their 2nd year if they did relatively well, through our amazing commission scheme. It wasn't enough, unfortunately. Because we expected people to work more than a standard 9-5 in return for all that. And people didn't want to do that. It made us 'dinosaurs' apparently as we didn't want people working from home because we wanted a sales buzz in the office with people learning and bouncing off each other.

So now I am doing the same thing in South Africa, but with basically none of the above. But with people who are absolutely buzzing to have an opportunity where if they go above and beyond they can make some extra money to help their family / church etc. For about a quarter the price, and with about 1% of the issues of doing it in Brighton.

Sad state of affairs really. But hey ho. Means I get to work from home and walk the dog 5 miles a day at 11am rather than dealing with some Gen Zers mental health challenges.

Wow. Yes, you went the extra mile.

My hypothesis (in relation to your experience, I can't generalize from it of course) has been shown to be incorrect.

It must be great to work with the new guys. :thumbsup:

(I have always been very fortunate that my long-term guys are all self-selecting PhD students or post docs who come to me because they want to engage. They haven't all been brilliant but all but one published and all the students graduated on time. I have had some wanker undergrads in the lab, doing short term projects, one of whom failed to attend and failed without submitting a dissertation - and of course saved the lives of a few rats - but I have managed to put off timewasters now by making my projects sound hard; the ones who rock up are ones who have been in my lectures and like my freewheeling, irreverent yet inspirational style. Ahem.)

Commander · Nov 28, 2024

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
Wow. Yes, you went the extra mile.

My hypothesis (in relation to your experience, I can't generalize from it of course) has been shown to be incorrect.

It must be great to work with the new guys.

(I have always been very fortunate that my long-term guys are all self-selecting PhD students or post docs who come to me because they want to engage. They haven't all been brilliant but all but one published and all the students graduated on time. I have had some wanker undergrads in the lab, doing short term projects, one of whom failed to attend and failed without submitting a dissertation - and of course saved the lives of a few rats - but I have managed to put off timewasters now by making my projects sound hard; the ones who rock up are ones who have been in my lectures and like my freewheeling, irreverent yet inspirational style. Ahem.)

Don't get me wrong, we did find some good ones! But the ratios were just ridiculously low.

What makes me laugh is that (with the exception of two, who were very good) every single person who we had to get rid of in the last 18 months failed in the next job they went in to. None of them lasted a year. I wonder whether they have yet realised it was them that was the problem, not us. I doubt it.

BN9 BHA · Nov 28, 2024

Commander said:
Our work culture involved bean bags, break out spaces, unlimited annual leave, a pool table, a free bar on Fridays, swanky lunches out every two months for top performers, trips to Marbella for top performers, even a £10K holiday to the Maldives for the top performer of the year. On top of a package that a 22 year old 2nd jobber would earn £50-£60K in their 2nd year if they did relatively well.

Do you need any plumbing work done? :moo:

I spent part of my day in a loft full of spiders webs cleaning out a dirty central heating expansion tank…….I don’t even know what a break out space is :smile:

Chicken Run · Nov 28, 2024

BN9 BHA said:
I don’t even know what a break out space is

In my house it’s the Loo, quite literally i break out in that at least once a day

sussex_guy2k2 · Nov 28, 2024

Weststander said:
I wouldn’t know about certain industries such as IT, or the factory floor. I found that taking the workload/stress away from clients or bosses, by …. a cliche coming up … taking ownership … to see something through to the end, was a winner for progressing. And more rewarding than just being a small cog playing a bit part and not seeing the final outcome.

Totally agree, and I work in a similar fashion, often to keep myself entertained at work more than anything.

However, I would argue that I did this at multiple companies before and it didn’t lead to progress - it led to me being taken advantage of without the pay rises and promotions that should’ve come.

A large part of it, in this regard, is playing the game. I’ve known multiple people throughout my life, often of the generation who claim to “work hard”, who’ve been promoted well above their station because they’re good at schmoozing the right people.

sussex_guy2k2 · Nov 28, 2024

BBassic said:
Interesting discussion, pleasantly surprised it hasn't devolved into "damn kids these days and their music television" type stuff.

I'm in a bit of a midway point in many ways. Approaching my 40s, I left education at 17 having decided Uni wasn't going to be for me. Went out and got a crappy office job answering phones and doing some data input because that was what my parents said I had to do. If I wasn't going to be learning then I had to be earning.

And I've done that ever since. Put the hours in, progressed my career. For someone with a smattering of GCSE's and 2 AS Levels I've done quite well. Mortgaged up and all that.

But I'm not happy. Far from it. The thought of working for another 30 years makes me want to throw myself off a f***ing building. It's not life. It's not living. It's surviving.

But what choice do we have?

I'd argue young people aren't work-shy; they've just cottoned on to the horrible joke of it all much faster than I did.

Totally agree. I think they’ve realised they can make money in other ways too, that don’t fit the norm. Those who up skill will be the most desired soon, not those with experience.

sussex_guy2k2 · Nov 28, 2024

Chicken Run said:
More parents need to be like you, the next generation of working age young people have grown up watching their parent/s to as little as possible for their weekly wage so it’s no surprise that they want a bit of the same

Edit yeah i know there are know parents like that here on NSC x

Aside from the fact that this is statistically utter c**p, it’s also the reason for the generational divide this country is facing.

In fact, many young people have grown up with both parents working full time hours AND still struggling to put food on the table, whilst simultaneously not getting the promotions and rewards their hard work deserves, nor the promotions and rewards that the generations before us have enjoyed. It’s the reason many of my generation just aren’t having kids, because they can’t imagine what kind of future they’re bringing them into.

Weststander · Nov 28, 2024

sussex_guy2k2 said:
Totally agree, and I work in a similar fashion, often to keep myself entertained at work more than anything.

However, I would argue that I did this at multiple companies before and it didn’t lead to progress - it led to me being taken advantage of without the pay rises and promotions that should’ve come.

A large part of it, in this regard, is playing the game. I’ve known multiple people throughout my life, often of the generation who claim to “work hard”, who’ve been promoted well above their station because they’re good at schmoozing the right people.

Again, totally all agree on all your comments.

There’ve always been lazy brown-nosers, in my experience they were all rubbish at the core business, the reason they were employed. They occupied the workplace for long hours, passed on gossip to the top dog, whispered sweet nothings. People have deep down insecurities (even if masked by a faux tough guy boss persona) … they’d rather have rubbish creeps close to them, promote them, than people who were bloody good at theirjob but wouldn’t fall in line with the backstabbing culture.

But I stand by comment and advice to youngsters to get good at something, to make the lives of stressed clients or bosses easier, take ownership. It make take moving employers or starting up on your own to finally make the most of that invaluable skillset in a happy environment.

Cotton Socks · Nov 28, 2024

I had 2 part time jobs from the age of 14. The hours & times I worked are now illegal and the business owners would now be required to get a 'permit'. My 17 year old is looking for a P/T job to fit in around college, it's not that easy. For example, shift times at the local Asda means he has to be 18. 'Saturday' jobs don't really exist anymore & not many employers want to hire someone who can only work specific days due to college. He's taken the old fashioned route with a couple of places he'd like to work at & sent them his CV via snail mail. They weren't advertising a position, he just thought he'd try. The next thing he's going to try is basically emailing companies in the sector he's studying to try and get a foot in the door.
To get his 3rd year qualification he has to do an apprenticeship. I've just looked for apprenticeships in the area he's studying & the only one is with the Army. He's not workshy, he's intelligent & wants to learn, but for him to get a P/T job, is easier said than done. He's not entitled and doesn't want to be a YouTuber. He wants a part time job to finance his hobby which isn't going out & getting p**sed (that bit makes me wonder if I bought the right child home from the hospital

) .

Not Andy Naylor · Nov 28, 2024

I was a lazy, work-shy clock-watcher until I got a job I enjoyed. That's obviously the secret, but not everyone is so lucky. I still feel a pang whenever I hear politicians talk about 'hard-working families'. Who's doing anything for us natural layabouts, I'd like to know? We also have the vote and are prepared to use it. Well, Mrs Not Andy Naylor would if she could be bothered to stop watching daytime TV and get up.

South Stand Bonfire · Nov 28, 2024

I

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
I had a Saturday shopping job that I picked up on the back of good work done for someone during cubs' bob-a-job week. I was age nine. Two and six for the work (equivalent to about 50p an hour - pretty generous for 1967).

I did that till I was 12 when the job ended, so I got a morning paper round. Six days a week, 70p a week. About 5p an hour. Mill House post office. f***ing horrible job.

When I was 14 I got an evening and weekend job at George the Chemist in Portslade. 25P an hour. I did that till I was 17, and it was clearly affecting my school work. No pay rises in 3 years. Exploitation or what? And I worked illegally as a dispenser's assistant from age 14. Pass the tincture of morphine, James (some of you may remember James the dispenser)! And people complained about union power in the 1970s. The only way to get anything out of the bosses was to be in a strong union. Fancy that!.

On the back of that I dissuaded my son from doing part time work while at school. Maybe that was a mistake. But I got quite ill when doing the paper round. It was exhausting doing these flats (no lifts) in Foredown Road:

View attachment 193015

And the evening job was when I should have been relaxing before doing homework (5-7 pm every weeknight) and the Saturday job stopped me going to the Goldstone, except for 7.40 evening kick offs).

I managed to save up £40. It took years. I bought a PA amp for my band. A few years later it was stolen. I was gutted. Hundreds of horrible hours working as a kid, up in smoke.

About 5 years ago I got over it, though.

I'm 66 now

I bought myself a nice shiny Raleigh Medale racing bike with my leaflet money from Debenhams in Eastbourne . Also a really nice Grundig amp, turntable and Wharfedale speakers. Happy days!

Weststander · Nov 28, 2024

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
I had a Saturday shopping job that I picked up on the back of good work done for someone during cubs' bob-a-job week. I was age nine. Two and six for the work (equivalent to about 50p an hour - pretty generous for 1967).

I did that till I was 12 when the job ended, so I got a morning paper round. Six days a week, 70p a week. About 5p an hour. Mill House post office. f***ing horrible job.

When I was 14 I got an evening and weekend job at George the Chemist in Portslade. 25P an hour. I did that till I was 17, and it was clearly affecting my school work. No pay rises in 3 years. Exploitation or what? And I worked illegally as a dispenser's assistant from age 14. Pass the tincture of morphine, James (some of you may remember James the dispenser)! And people complained about union power in the 1970s. The only way to get anything out of the bosses was to be in a strong union. Fancy that!.

On the back of that I dissuaded my son from doing part time work while at school. Maybe that was a mistake. But I got quite ill when doing the paper round. It was exhausting doing these flats (no lifts) in Foredown Road:

View attachment 193015

And the evening job was when I should have been relaxing before doing homework (5-7 pm every weeknight) and the Saturday job stopped me going to the Goldstone, except for 7.40 evening kick offs).

I managed to save up £40. It took years. I bought a PA amp for my band. A few years later it was stolen. I was gutted. Hundreds of horrible hours working as a kid, up in smoke.

About 5 years ago I got over it, though.

I'm 66 now

1979 I did a kitchen porter job one evening a week, 75p per hour. Purely to save up for a Panasonic hifi, then I stopped.

I was against our kids working, I wanted them to put their effort into school and to have 100% leisure time after homework. Most of our friends really disagree with that, strong opinions that kids doing part time work gives a work ethic and teaches them the value of money.

I don’t think there’s a proven correlation. I know folk who didn’t have childhood jobs who went to be hardworking and enterprising adults.

WATFORD zero · Nov 28, 2024

Cotton Socks said:
I had 2 part time jobs from the age of 14. The hours & times I worked are now illegal and the business owners would now be required to get a 'permit'. My 17 year old is looking for a P/T job to fit in around college, it's not that easy. For example, shift times at the local Asda means he has to be 18. 'Saturday' jobs don't really exist anymore & not many employers want to hire someone who can only work specific days due to college. He's taken the old fashioned route with a couple of places he'd like to work at & sent them his CV via snail mail. They weren't advertising a position, he just thought he'd try. The next thing he's going to try is basically emailing companies in the sector he's studying to try and get a foot in the door.
To get his 3rd year qualification he has to do an apprenticeship. I've just looked for apprenticeships in the area he's studying & the only one is with the Army. He's not workshy, he's intelligent & wants to learn, but for him to get a P/T job, is easier said than done. He's not entitled and doesn't want to be a YouTuber. He wants a part time job to finance his hobby which isn't going out & getting p**sed (that bit makes me wonder if I bought the right child home from the hospital ) .

When my son started at 6th Form college we told him he should get a part time job as he was now an adult. He applied for loads and didn't get a look in. We suggested he volunteered and he started working at the British Heart Foundation shop in western road on Saturdays.

A couple of months later he re-applied, having updated his 'cv' with his 100% attendance record from school and his 'till work' experience at BHF. He got an interview at Primark and got the job. He worked there throughout 6th Form and continued to work there so he could afford to live out at University without a maintenance loan.

His sister, starting at 6th form a couple of years later, applied to Primark and got an immediate interview and offer. Just when she was telling her sibling how much better she was than him, Primark explained how they liked to employ siblings if the first one was reliable. He's still waiting for his commision :wink:

Primark only seem to employ students and are totally set up for it.

When he finished at Uni, he applied for over 200 jobs in the area he was qualified for (I remember the spreadsheet) but worked full time for the whole year he was applying in various jobs including factory packing (where they offered a permanent job after the first day), loading scaffolding into lorries (seriously hard work, even for a youngster), horrendous tele sales stuff (Soul destroying) etc etc. Eventually he got offered a temp job in the area he was qualified, in London where the majority of his wage went on travelling.

He took it on, did a horrendous commute from our house for 9 months, had a couple of lucky breaks and grabbed them with both hands. He now has a very good job and has just bought a flat in London as he turned 30.

Being young and trying to get a break can be soul destroying. It can happen, but it takes bloody hard work and a break or two. Wish your son good luck, tell him it's a numbers game that he has to take part in and try Primark. Good Luck :thumbsup:

And if you think that is long winded, I'll tell you about my daughter or how I managed to get into a position to be lucky enough to give my kids those sort of chances :wink:

stewart12 · Nov 28, 2024

Weststander said:
1979 I did a kitchen porter job one evening a week, 75p per hour. Purely to save up for a Panasonic hifi, then I stopped.

I was against our kids working, I wanted them to put their effort into school and to have 100% leisure time after homework. Most of our friends really disagree with that, strong opinions that kids doing part time work gives a work ethic and teaches them the value of money.

I don’t think there’s a proven correlation. I know folk who didn’t have childhood jobs who went to be hardworking and enterprising adults.

My opinion is that part time jobs at an early age teach things like time keeping, hierarchy, customer service, teamwork etc which are all important skills to have

I remember my first job when I was 16 at the co op. One thing I quickly grasped was that even though I was young I wouldn't be treated like I was- I was there to work like an adult

But equally you could get some of that elsewhere- sports clubs, voluntary work for example

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[News] Is Britain work shy ?

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