[Politics] Is democracy in crisis?

Rdodge30 · Nov 10, 2024

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
2012 you say?

McLusky quit the labour party in 2024.

Good.

If Starmer raised an eyebrow earlier, I suspect he's now lowered it.

As I noted earlier, I don't know whether you are all excited about Labour being overthrown by a trade unionist, or worried. Either way I wouldn't hold my breath.

The thing is Graham is not in the least bit concerned with the internal political wrangling of the Labour Party at all - she’s all about the membership and the Union. She’s reduced financial support for the Labour Party and refused to endorse the recent Manifesto. Her Facebook shows her in support of every strike and dispute going

It may well be the case that in Starmer’s backroom of red leather armchairs and cigar smoke there is a plan to replace her. I hope so

The Clamp · Nov 10, 2024

Rdodge30 said:
People know what they are voting for … not the first time the polling has been wrong

It’s incomprehensible in the tiny little NSC left wing bubble I know but those politicians are extremely popular in a lot of places and shocking as it may seem it’s not because everyone else is stupid

I think the biggest mistake the left (amongst whom I do not count myself) is underestimating how stupid some voters can be. Across all parties and all territories.

WATFORD zero · Nov 10, 2024

Rdodge30 said:
People know what they are voting for … not the first time the polling has been wrong

It’s incomprehensible in the tiny little NSC left wing bubble I know but those politicians are extremely popular in a lot of places and shocking as it may seem it’s not because everyone else is stupid

Indeed, like all those who voted Brexit to bring Immigration down ........ oh :laugh:

Rdodge30 · Nov 10, 2024

The Clamp said:
I think the biggest mistake the left (amongst whom I do not count myself) is underestimating how stupid some voters can be. Across all parties and all territories

WATFORD zero said:
Indeed, like all those who voted Brexit to bring Immigration down ........ oh

And all those who voted Starmer in

KZNSeagull · Nov 10, 2024

The Clamp said:
I think the biggest mistake the left (amongst whom I do not count myself) is underestimating how stupid some voters can be. Across all parties and all territories.

I think the biggest mistake is branding others as stupid instead of finding out why they vote the way they do.

WATFORD zero · Nov 10, 2024

KZNSeagull said:
I think the biggest mistake is branding others as stupid instead of finding out why they vote the way they do.

Well maybe take my example above. Why did you think people who wanted immigration to go down voted for Brexit when it has done the complete opposite ?

KZNSeagull · Nov 10, 2024

WATFORD zero said:
Well maybe take my example above. Why did you think people who wanted immigration to go down voted for Brexit when it has done the complete opposite ?

You have had 8 years to ask them. Have you? Has anyone?

WATFORD zero · Nov 10, 2024

KZNSeagull said:
You have had 8 years to ask them. Have you? Has anyone?

I don't think it's a secret, It was because they were told the exact opposite by Johnson and Farage and believed them. So now we haven't called them stupid and found out why they voted the way they did, how does that help :shrug:

KZNSeagull · Nov 10, 2024

WATFORD zero said:
I don't think it's a secret, It was because they were told the exact opposite by Johnson and Farage and believed them. So now we haven't called them stupid and found out why they voted the way they did, how does that help

We now know that the counter arguments were either not good enough or were presented in a way that was not good enough.

WATFORD zero · Nov 10, 2024

KZNSeagull said:
We now know that the counter arguments were either not good enough or were presented in a way that was not good enough.

I see. It wasn't the liars that are at fault, it was the people who didn't tell the truth well enough :facepalm:

Like when Trump gave the perfectly reasonable and believable story about immigrants eating cats and dogs. It isn't the people who believe him that are the problem, it's those that are unable to convince them it's not actually true.

And on that salient note, I'm out :laugh:

KZNSeagull · Nov 10, 2024

WATFORD zero said:
I see. It wasn't the liars that are at fault, it was the people who didn't tell the truth well enough

And on that salient note, I'm out

If people are believing the lies then the liars are not going to stop are they? So the truth tellers have to up their game, significantly.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Nov 10, 2024

Rdodge30 said:
The thing is Graham is not in the least bit concerned with the internal political wrangling of the Labour Party at all - she’s all about the membership and the Union. She’s reduced financial support for the Labour Party and refused to endorse the recent Manifesto. Her Facebook shows her in support of every strike and dispute going

It may well be the case that in Starmer’s backroom of red leather armchairs and cigar smoke there is a plan to replace her. I hope so

It is none of Starmer's business to replace Graham.

She is an elected union leader (elected by 4% of her membership).

Her union doesn't support Labour. She has nothing to do with Labour

I doubt that Starmer gives a flying shit what she says or thinks :shrug:

Rdodge30 · Nov 10, 2024

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
It is none of Starmer's business to replace Graham.

She is an elected union leader (elected by 4% of her membership).

Her union doesn't support Labour. She has nothing to do with Labour

I doubt that Starmer gives a flying shit what she says or thinks

Of course not - it’s not like Starmer needs to rely on the support of the unions’ general secretaries with 2 seats each on the Labour National Executive Committee… which Unite have

So it is definitely not the case that she has nothing to do with Labour and I expect Starmer cares a little more than you think.

The GMB general secretary Gary Smith is prepared to take the Government on over net zero and Scottish refinery jobs add in Mick Whelan and Mick Lynch and I think there are enough people to the left of Derek Hatton who are very popular and wield at least some power.

Only time will tell Harry as with most of our political exchanges and I’m not saying that Sharon Graham will set out to bring the Government down or even that she is capable of it. But she is more militant than McCluskey was and she will go all in if she believes it necessary.

And given all of that I would expect Starmer’s back room boys to have some interest and even influence in all the union general secretary elections as they come round

The Clamp · Nov 10, 2024

KZNSeagull said:
I think the biggest mistake is branding others as stupid instead of finding out why they vote the way they do.

Yeah I hear that a lot. I don’t agree.

The Clamp · Nov 10, 2024

Rdodge30 said:
And all those who voted Starmer in

Yes. I found out why they voted the way they voted. They’re stupid.

Bodian · Nov 10, 2024

KZNSeagull said:
If people are believing the lies then the liars are not going to stop are they? So the truth tellers have to up their game, significantly.

But how?

The example cited of Trump and the eating cats and dogs. It was roundly dismissed by all as being a pack of lies - yet people seemingly still believed it. Same with the 2020 'steal'. 60 court cases, no evidence found - yet the liars still prevail and are believed.

So, when you say the truth-tellers have to up their game, what do you mean exactly. They can't do much more than provide all the evidence disproving the lies?

KZNSeagull · Nov 10, 2024

Bodian said:
But how?

The example cited of Trump and the eating cats and dogs. It was roundly dismissed by all as being a pack of lies - yet people seemingly still believed it. Same with the 2020 'steal'. 60 court cases, no evidence found - yet the liars still prevail and are believed.

So, when you say the truth-tellers have to up their game, what do you mean exactly. They can't do much more than provide all the evidence disproving the lies?

I am not a communications expert but I would guess that how people learnt of that story and believed it might give some idea of how to fight back. The people who believe these things are unlikely to get their news from normal sources, so maybe truth tellers must infiltrate those sources? It is people like you and me that know it is a pack of lies, the sort of people who get their news from normal sources. Those that believe it get their "news" from all sort of dodgy sources on the internet I guess and stopped watching traditional, normal news channels years ago.
All I do know is that branding people as stupid and being incredulous at what they vote for isn't working as a strategy to beat them. There have been too many "odd" election results now to believe things are not going to change without a radical rethink from those that keep losing.

Edit: It would help if governments kept their promises too btw.

Crawley Dingo · Nov 10, 2024

Bodian said:
But how?

The example cited of Trump and the eating cats and dogs. It was roundly dismissed by all as being a pack of lies - yet people seemingly still believed it. Same with the 2020 'steal'. 60 court cases, no evidence found - yet the liars still prevail and are believed.

So, when you say the truth-tellers have to up their game, what do you mean exactly. They can't do much more than provide all the evidence disproving the lies?

Remember you operate in a political bubble, just because some accusations are unproven doesn't make the claim false.

beorhthelm · Nov 10, 2024

Crawley Dingo said:
Remember you operate in a political bubble, just because some accusations are unproven doesn't make the claim false.

Remember you operate in a political bubble, just because some accusations are made up, doesn't make them true.

Bodian · Nov 10, 2024

Crawley Dingo said:
Remember you operate in a political bubble, just because some accusations are unproven doesn't make the claim false.

Are you saying that they ARE eating cats and dogs then?

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