[Politics] Is democracy in crisis?

Guinness Boy · Saturday at 1:19 PM

Professor Plum said:
Whether it’s palatable or not to the more left-leaning here, the fact is that large scale immigration, especially 'illegal' undocumented immigration, is the root cause of this political shift to the right — certainly in Europe. You’ve been told this constantly. Constantly. And you've been told what the political consequences will be to Europe's quasi-open borders policy. And the only response, ever, is to mutter "Racist!" so that it’s now a vital topic that can never be discussed intelligently and dispassionately.

As for the decline of democracy, a major step forward in the UK would be the introduction of some form of proportional representation to at least give the people some semblance of having accountable government. No party should have a massive parliamentary majority based on the support of barely 20% of the electorate and after more than two-thirds of actual voters voted for parties other than them.

What an incredibly patronising piece of horse shit.

Immigration is needed in this country all the time there’s a birth rate, as there is currently, of 1.69 in this country.

I bet you’re one of those whinging about WFP without the slightest realisation that future generations of pensioners will be impoverished without the young adults to fill the government’s coffers.

Luckily we have a government addressing this long term issue as well as the impending climate crisis instead of the thoughts of cab drivers who can’t see beyond next week.

Professor Plum · Saturday at 1:26 PM

Sid and the Sharknados said:
It is frequently pointed out that the economic consequences of actually cutting immigration would be more unpalatable than allowing it. And people often talk about cutting uncontrolled immigration, that's why there's a joke around Starmer constantly going on about "smashing the gangs" and people at the Guardian were clutching their pearls at him talking to the Italian PM about their migration policies a few months ago.

Of course, nobody wants to seriously engage with the long term solutions which would involve solving climate change, free trade with poorer countries so that more jobs are available in those countries and engaging to solve the political and social problems of those countries so that people don't feel the need to emmigrate from them for a better life. That would cost money.

It also doesn't help that there are many people on the right who do want to talk about this who are more interested in stirring the pot and provoking a reaction, and then conflating whatever nonsense they've just said with normal people's more reasonable thoughts on the matter, than they are with actually discussing the issues sensibly and moderately.

This I do agree with.

I said illegal / undocumented unplanned immigration. I’m all in favour of planned, economic migration and as long as it has the consent of the people at large, we should embrace it. Even a Reform voter is surely happy to see an Indian doctor if it means they can get a GP appointment.

Chicken Run · Saturday at 1:34 PM

Hugo Rune said:
Trump may well be as thick as shit but Musk really is a genius, albeit an evil one who would grace any James Bond movie as the media mogul baddie intent on taking over the world.

The debate on which Bond villain he mostly resembles is a tough one though. I’m going for my fellow Hugo:

View attachment 192129

Where’s Dr Goodhead?

WATFORD zero · Saturday at 1:37 PM

Professor Plum said:
I said illegal / undocumented unplanned immigration. I’m all in favour of planned, economic migration and as long as it has the consent of the people at large, we should embrace it. Even a Reform voter is surely happy to see an Indian doctor if it means they can get a GP appointment.

You're perfectly happy with the 1,220,000 'legal' migrants in 2023, but think the 29,437 asylum seekers are the big problem ?

Harry Wilson's tackle · Saturday at 1:37 PM

Weststander said:
Labelling. Where would you place North Korea, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran?

Monarchy communist (but fascist in all but name - the people have no representation), Islamofascist, Islamofascist, er, Islamic dictatorship.

None of them have what would amount to a political (left/right) philosophy. The all need to be put in the sea.

The only truly leftist communist regime as far as I am aware was the Sandinistas. And America didn't like it....

Right....must leave tor footy!

dsr-burnley · Saturday at 1:41 PM

Uh_huh_him said:
Sorry what does social media was inclined to be left leaning mean?

It means that the bulk of what people read tends to be left leaning. For example, if I said that North Stand Chat tended to be left leaning, I would mean that the majority of posts favour a left wing viewpoint.

Professor Plum · Saturday at 1:42 PM

Guinness Boy said:
What an incredibly patronising piece of horse shit.

Immigration is needed in this country all the time there’s a birth rate, as there is currently, of 1.69 in this country.

I bet you’re one of those whinging about WFP without the slightest realisation that future generations of pensioners will be impoverished without the young adults to fill the government’s coffers.

Luckily we have a government addressing this long term issue as well as the impending climate crisis instead of the thoughts of cab drivers who can’t see beyond next week.

1) I agree with you that immigration is needed.
2) I've no problem with the WFP payment being taken away from those, like me, who don't need it. I object to WFP being taken away from those who do need it.
3) This government actually created the WFP crisis. Whether they're willing and able to address illegal immigration remains to be seen but I repeat that this is the cause of the shift rightwards across Europe -- whether you accept that or not.
4) No government of any political colour should have an overwhelming majority based on the support of a small minority of people in that country.

BLOCK F · Saturday at 1:54 PM

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
I disagree.

From what I can see 'the left' (i.e., the equivalent of 'the right' - the extremists) are absolutely useless at winning hearts and minds, inventing shit that becomes accepted as fact, gaining any traction with wider society, etc.

When was the last time a hard left party won a general election? Anywhere?

The hard left are irrelevant. They don't even own a cat, let alone have a dog in the fight.

Someone posted on here a while ago that the doctors' union', the British Medical Association (which is in fact a professional governing body) is a militant organization run by Marxists intent on bringing down society and are hated by rank and file doctors who just want to get on with their jobs.

This makes the BMA the leading (and only) player from the 'hard left' in this eternal battle with the likes of Trump, Musk, Badenough, the clown in Hungary, the clown in France, the clown in Germany, the clown in Sweden and so on.

For the sake of balance I am suggesting that your perception of a balance between the nefarious right and the nefarious left is a somewhat one-eyed take on the sociopolitical landscape.

And I say that as someone who is not bovvered about the way things are - if the whole world wants to buy into the Musk/Trump vision, they can fill their boots. It is all same old same old as far as I can see. "If you want a n***** for a neighbour, vote Labour". We have heard it all before. And we move on. And dull old Starmer suits me fine at the moment.

Harry, I hope you are not referring to me in your fifth paragraph re the BMA.
I do recall that we discussed the BMA at some time, and from memory, I said that a number of members with hard left views had taken over prominent positions in the association . Again from memory, you disagreed and said you would do some research. I don’t know whether or not you did, but if you had, you would have discovered quite a lot of evidence that this was the case. I believe I also referred you to the Nick Robinson’s ‘Political Thinking’ interview with Dr. Emma Runswick. I don’t know whether you have listened to it or not, but you may find it interesting, if you didn’t.

Professor Plum · Saturday at 1:54 PM

WATFORD zero said:
You're perfectly happy with the 1,220,000 'legal' migrants in 2023, but think the 29,437 asylum seekers are the big problem ?

I'm in favour of planned, managed immigration regardless of numbers. If we have the infrastructure and facilities to accept X number then that's fine. Most immigration isn't permanent. If people want to come here to study (putting money into the education sector) or to work in industries with skills shortages, I think most people accept that.

Note: there were far more asylum seekers than 29,437.

Sid and the Sharknados · Saturday at 1:55 PM

Professor Plum said:
I said illegal / undocumented unplanned immigration. I’m all in favour of planned, economic migration and as long as it has the consent of the people at large, we should embrace it. Even a Reform voter is surely happy to see an Indian doctor if it means they can get a GP appointment.

I know. Everything apart from my first sentence related to illegal/undocumented/unplanned migration.

tigertim68 · Saturday at 1:57 PM

Guinness Boy said:
What an incredibly patronising piece of horse shit.

Immigration is needed in this country all the time there’s a birth rate, as there is currently, of 1.69 in this country.

I bet you’re one of those whinging about WFP without the slightest realisation that future generations of pensioners will be impoverished without the young adults to fill the government’s coffers.

Luckily we have a government addressing this long term issue as well as the impending climate crisis instead of the thoughts of cab drivers who can’t see beyond next week.

Sorry mate you are the one talking horse shit , this country is being run like a police state , with a party so far to the left , by people who are probably the least qualified, least Talented , least experience that this country has ever had ,

Bakero · Saturday at 2:01 PM

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
If there is a threat out there, it is from the hard right, the demagogues, the chancers and the grifters. The hard left is irrelevant. Pol Pot has long since vanished. China has embraced capitalism. Who the f*** is Chavez when he's not at home in Venezuela?

Chavez has been dead for over 10 years

Bakero · Saturday at 2:03 PM

tigertim68 said:
Sorry mate you are the one talking horse shit , this country is being run like a police state , with a party so far to the left , by people who are probably the least qualified, least Talented , least experience that this country has ever had ,

So far to the left of what? The Golden Horde?

nicko31 · Saturday at 2:03 PM

Guinness Boy said:
What an incredibly patronising piece of horse shit.

Immigration is needed in this country all the time there’s a birth rate, as there is currently, of 1.69 in this country.

I bet you’re one of those whinging about WFP without the slightest realisation that future generations of pensioners will be impoverished without the young adults to fill the government’s coffers.

Luckily we have a government addressing this long term issue as well as the impending climate crisis instead of the thoughts of cab drivers who can’t see beyond next week.

People don't like the idea of immigration, but then complain when there's no one to wipe their mother in-laws backside.

Unless we can increase the birthrate, we need migration and we need to work for our neighbours who to deal with climate / war refugees. Trying to pull up the drawbridge won't work

Bakero · Saturday at 2:04 PM

heathgate said:
There isn't, and never has been a pre req that you need to be 'informed'..... democracy is just that, a true balance of the electoral opinion across all demographics, age, race, education and economic.... suck it up.

You're right that the electorate was never highly informed. However, large swathes of people are now misinformed like never before.

Sid and the Sharknados · Saturday at 2:05 PM

nicko31 said:
People don't like the idea of immigration, but then complain when there's no one to wipe their mother in-laws backside.

Unless we can increase the birthrate, we need migration and we need to work for our neighbours who to deal with climate / war refugees. Trying to pull up the drawbridge won't work

Bodian · Saturday at 2:06 PM

tigertim68 said:
Sorry mate you are the one talking horse shit , this country is being run like a police state , with a party so far to the left , by people who are probably the least qualified, least Talented , least experience that this country has ever had ,

For a start, if there is a 'police state' it's because of the freedoms and civil liberties gradually eroded over the last 20 years or so, mainly by the Tories with things like the prohibition of much of the right to protest and so on - little to do with this government.

And secondly - Starmer's party is more to the right than even Blair's labour. The far left of Corbyn was soundly rejected at the ballot box.

jcdenton08 · Saturday at 2:12 PM

ManOfSussex said:
I read about that last week - one of Reagan's biggest errors.

That’s a negative, and right now I need two positives

Sid and the Sharknados · Saturday at 2:13 PM

Bodian said:
And secondly - Starmer's party is more to the right than even Blair's labour. The far left of Corbyn was soundly rejected at the ballot box.

Pretty much what I was waffling on about in one of my posts above.

I was reading about Rockefeller Republicans yesterday, and more broadly the shift towards the right in that party from the mid/late 70s onwards. The way the US and Britain are governed are miles to the right of where they were 30+ years ago.

Margaret Thatcher ran a government that actively rejected privatising the railways. Whereas gradually bringing them back under state ownership is regarded by some people now as far left socialism.

Guinness Boy · Saturday at 2:18 PM

tigertim68 said:
Sorry mate you are the one talking horse shit , this country is being run like a police state , with a party so far to the left , by people who are probably the least qualified, least Talented , least experience that this country has ever had ,

If this is a police state and you disagree with its leader, how come you’re not banged up?

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