You could actually try to be just a little more balanced.
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[Politics] Is democracy in crisis?
- Thread starter Pavilionaire
- Start date
newrepublic.com
- Oct 12, 2022
- 2,683
I hear what you say, but Gordon Brown ended Boom and Bust, and Tony Blair invaded Iraq on a pretext. Even politicians that have done very well for us have not been pure and white.
There has been (often vile) sexual misconduct on all sides of the house here in the UK, and Clinton abused his position as President. None of it’s new.
We live through it and come out the other side. We can’t allow our mental wellbeing to rest on the actions of politicians of any stripe. We’re not in control, they’re going to do what they do, and we’re bystanders who only get to pick the pool of figureheads every term of parliament.
We get to pick a general direction every five years, but we don’t control them.
The owner of one of the biggest social media platforms is about to get a job in the US Government. Let that sink in for a minute.
Unfortunately way too many journalists just take stories verbatim from social media these days, including serious ones. Thus we had the Today programme no less stating as fact yesterday that Israelis were about to be “rescued” from Amsterdam by plane.
Imagine Bozza selling this site to a pro Labour investor who pushed all threads and posts by patrons to the top and created hundreds of pro SKS posts by bots. Some on here wet their knickers when a moderator dares to have an opinion
Was thinking the same, as usual in the NSC world of Politics when an incredibly unpopular and unexpected result happens the usual suspects ( there’s quite few) spend months and even years waffling on about what went wrong and to lay blame. If Harris had won on Wednesday in the same convincing fashion as Frump had we’d already be moved on
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dsr-burnley
Well-known member
- Aug 15, 2014
- 2,615
Social media was inclined to be left-supporting and the Democrats had almost every celebrity going for them. It's not accurate to assume that Twitter and Musk were all that people had to go on.
This isn't a left/right issue, at least not within the parameters we'd normally understand it in the UK. It's a problem for the sensible right as well. The sort of policies espoused by the modern republican party or Reform over here, or many parties that do well in Europe, would have been considered totally batshit by 90% of people only a decade ago.
I'm not interested in the actual European debate, but the way that conversation's shifted over 10years is a really good example of this. We've gone from a significant number of senior Conservatives (including the leader of the party and most of the cabinet) fully supporting us being in the EU, past people being dismissed as "traiters" for defending the legal process by which we leave (oh, there goes the idea that insulting and inflammatory language is the preserve of the left incidentally), through "we'd still stay in the common market", to a point where notionally important and serious people are talking about leaving the ECHR.
What I'm getting at is, the "left" engaging with this sort of debate over how they describe other people's opinions just validates the opposition's position. All that happens is the charlatans on the right continue shifting the goalposts until we've gone from debating what a sensible immigration policy would look like to seriously considering questions like "how much would it cost to deport all the foreigners?" There's no point worrying about the best way to engage with this because it's not the conversation we (as a country/democracy) should be having. We have to talk about the actual problems and the real context, not "are these people stupid for supporting [insert here]".
As an aside and an example of how this sort of thing doesn't really matter anyway, when there were lots of headlines back in 2010 about Gordon Brown calling somebody in Rochdale a "bigoted woman" and everybody thought the world was about to cave in, that constituency switched from Lib Dem to Labour.
I disagree.
From what I can see 'the left' (i.e., the equivalent of 'the right' - the extremists) are absolutely useless at winning hearts and minds, inventing shit that becomes accepted as fact, gaining any traction with wider society, etc.
When was the last time a hard left party won a general election? Anywhere?
The hard left are irrelevant. They don't even own a cat, let alone have a dog in the fight.
Someone posted on here a while ago that the doctors' union', the British Medical Association (which is in fact a professional governing body) is a militant organization run by Marxists intent on bringing down society and are hated by rank and file doctors who just want to get on with their jobs.
This makes the BMA the leading (and only) player from the 'hard left' in this eternal battle with the likes of Trump, Musk, Badenough, the clown in Hungary, the clown in France, the clown in Germany, the clown in Sweden and so on.
For the sake of balance I am suggesting that your perception of a balance between the nefarious right and the nefarious left is a somewhat one-eyed take on the sociopolitical landscape.
And I say that as someone who is not bovvered about the way things are - if the whole world wants to buy into the Musk/Trump vision, they can fill their boots. It is all same old same old as far as I can see. "If you want a n***** for a neighbour, vote Labour". We have heard it all before. And we move on. And dull old Starmer suits me fine at the moment.
Weststander
Well-known member
There’s a reaction, a big reaction against views or policies being pushed as the only way. Country-changing growth through net inwards migration, sly anti semitism, aggressive anti feminism. I personally know folk of all ages who feel this. Do you know anyone well who’s not from the centre to left?
This really has become a thing. Look at election results throughout Europe. Something seminal has happened in the last 15 years.
Of course there’s aggressive, oppressive, spiteful, sometimes undemocratic, sometimes murderous governance from both ends of the political spectrum. Chavez in Venezuela, political opponents find prison or go missing across the world in regimes at both ends of the horseshoe.
The OP didn’t catastrophise. Trump will now set about increasing climate change, dismantling/skewing checks and balances, and in effect allow genocide in Ukraine. In nearby neighbours parties have power that believe variously that Franco and Putin are alright.
But I understand ‘positive thinking’ to make life palatable.
fly high
Well-known member
Musk might be a bigger worry than Trump with his world wide control of major social media platform & internet connection via starlink.
Re. The criticism of the UK and US government over inflation, the same thought occurred to me (not that I listen to O'Brien, but I like to think of myself as having some sort of self-awareness).
If anything, the US government is more open to domestic criticism over this sort of thing, given they have the world's reserve currency and largest internal market, so can afford to do more things to try and correct their economy than Britain or any other country.
The major issue I see with this would be that, on the face of it, most of Trump's policies seem likely to be inflationary themselves, making the criticism seem unreasonable.
Apart from the irrelevant Venezuelans, your have not provided any examples of the extreme left being in balance with the extreme right (my point - you seemed to want to include the extreme left in your narrative about the state of the world). The evidence in from of me shows that across the world the right holds sway, with a few exceptions.
Anti-Semitism is not the exclusive province of the extreme left.
Putin is not the left example that balances all the extreme right wing forces. I don't class Putin as left win at all in fact. he is just another nationalist demagogue. And he's big buds with Trump is he not?
If there is a threat out there, it is from the hard right, the demagogues, the chancers and the grifters. The hard left is irrelevant. Pol Pot has long since vanished. China has embraced capitalism. Who the f*** is Chavez when he's not at home in Venezuela?
And I do have good friends who are tory voters. And yes, they fear the hard left. But they would, wouldn't they? I fear the hard left, or would if they emerged again.
I quit Labour before Corbyn became leader, and stayed away till after Corbyn left, so you can lable me as a left winger if you wish, but the conversation was about 'hard' left and right.
As for positive thinking and making life palatable, I don't in fact think that life is palatable, and we should always strive for better, but I disagree with the catastrophizing narrative that things now are worse than they ever were. I would argue they are better, and we are better informed. But we are poor at making judgements, and can embrace daft ideas, like Brexit. No change there, either
Exactly.
Trump had the backing of 60 billionaires. It was an awful lot more than just Twitter and Musk powering the Trump campaign.
The billionaires will have done quid-pro-quo deals with the Trump campaign which will see them exercise enormous power and influence over the next 4 years as ‘too old to Govern’ Trump attempts to decimate his astonishing previous record of ‘minutes on the golf course whilst serving as president’.
Ironically, the people who voted for Trump in numbers fundamentally did it for the dollar because they believe Trump will make them better off. Analysis of his tax plans reveals the absolute opposite, they’ll be slightly worse off whilst the millionaires and billionaires should be 4% up on the present administration and a lot better off compared to Harris’ plans which would have seen the poorest in American society benefit by up to 8% on tax savings.
The statement that ‘social media’ was inclined to be ‘left leaning’ is very odd. Social media is a vacuum, an echo chamber, unless you are on twitter, you generally remain in your own political bubble where people like you express similar opinions and algorithms for commercial or electoral gain target you with stuff you want to see.
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Trump may well be as thick as shit but Musk really is a genius, albeit an evil one who would grace any James Bond movie as the media mogul baddie intent on taking over the world.
The debate on which Bond villain he mostly resembles is a tough one though. I’m going for my fellow Hugo:
- Jul 27, 2024
- 580
Whether it’s palatable or not to the more left-leaning here, the fact is that large scale immigration, especially 'illegal' undocumented immigration, is the root cause of this political shift to the right — certainly in Europe. You’ve been told this constantly. Constantly. And you've been told what the political consequences will be to Europe's quasi-open borders policy. And the only response, ever, is to mutter "Racist!" so that it’s now a vital topic that can never be discussed intelligently and dispassionately.
As for the decline of democracy, a major step forward in the UK would be the introduction of some form of proportional representation to at least give the people some semblance of having accountable government. No party should have a massive parliamentary majority based on the support of barely 20% of the electorate and after more than two-thirds of actual voters voted for parties other than them.
As for the decline of democracy, a major step forward in the UK would be the introduction of some form of proportional representation to at least give the people some semblance of having accountable government. No party should have a massive parliamentary majority based on the support of barely 20% of the electorate and after more than two-thirds of actual voters voted for parties other than them.
Uh_huh_him
Well-known member
- Sep 28, 2011
- 12,083
The idea that Labour have lost popularity because of policies, may be true.
But in reality, their popularity was always going to take a nose-dive, as soon as they became the government.
The system is broken.
It has been since 2008.
Politics has been farcical since that point and all that has been achieved is the transfer of assets to the wealthiest individuals.
I was hopeful Labour were prepared to make the radical changes necessary to buck the trend.
But they aren't.
When they said those with the broadest shoulders will have to bear the brunt of the pain, I assumed they meant they were going to target billionaires.
But no.
Pensioners and employers and parents who send their kids to private school, were what they meant.
Big f***ing whoop.
Employers NI increases just mean no pay rises/redundancy for the employed middle classes and inflation as the increased costs get passed back to the consumer.
The only alternative to those of us who don't rely on investments for their security, is being offered from right wing voices.
Of course they won't deliver on their promises, but when the traditional party of the working class, isn't addressing the issue head on, where else are they going to go?
Uh_huh_him
Well-known member
- Sep 28, 2011
- 12,083
Sorry what does social media was inclined to be left leaning mean?
Weststander
Well-known member
Apart from the irrelevant Venezuelans, your have not provided any examples of the extreme left being in balance with the extreme right (my point - you seemed to want to include the extreme left in your narrative about the state of the world). The evidence in from of me shows that across the world the right holds sway, with a few exceptions.
Anti-Semitism is not the exclusive province of the extreme left.
Putin is not the left example that balances all the extreme right wing forces. I don't class Putin as left win at all in fact. he is just another nationalist demagogue. And he's big buds with Trump is he not?
If there is a threat out there, it is from the hard right, the demagogues, the chancers and the grifters. The hard left is irrelevant. Pol Pot has long since vanished. China has embraced capitalism. Who the f*** is Chavez when he's not at home in Venezuela?
And I do have good friends who are tory voters. And yes, they fear the hard left. But they would, wouldn't they? I fear the hard left, or would if they emerged again.
I quit Labour before Corbyn became leader, and stayed away till after Corbyn left, so you can lable me as a left winger if you wish, but the conversation was about 'hard' left and right.
As for positive thinking and making life palatable, I don't in fact think that life is palatable, and we should always strive for better, but I disagree with the catastrophizing narrative that things now are worse than they ever were. I would argue they are better, and we are better informed. But we are poor at making judgements, and can embrace daft ideas, like Brexit. No change there, either
Labelling. Where would you place North Korea, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran?
- Apr 13, 2015
- 3,854
There isn't, and never has been a pre req that you need to be 'informed'..... democracy is just that, a true balance of the electoral opinion across all demographics, age, race, education and economic.... suck it up.
It is frequently pointed out that the economic consequences of actually cutting immigration would be more unpalatable than allowing it. And people often talk about cutting uncontrolled immigration, that's why there's a joke around Starmer constantly going on about "smashing the gangs" and people at the Guardian were clutching their pearls at him talking to the Italian PM about their migration policies a few months ago.
Of course, nobody wants to seriously engage with the long term solutions which would involve solving climate change, free trade with poorer countries so that more jobs are available in those countries and engaging to solve the political and social problems of those countries so that people don't feel the need to emmigrate from them for a better life. That would cost money.
It also doesn't help that there are many people on the right who do want to talk about this who are more interested in stirring the pot and provoking a reaction, and then conflating whatever nonsense they've just said with normal people's more reasonable thoughts on the matter, than they are with actually discussing the issues sensibly and moderately.
This I do agree with.