[Politics] Is democracy in crisis?

Pavilionaire said:

I think that calling someone stupid is counter-productive and wrong, but it is clear that some voters are better informed than others.

It is also clear that if people choose to vote purely on "it's the economy stupid" and only on matters that effect them directly, without considering the environment, education, foreign policy, justice etc then the world really is f***ed.

Trump made it sound like the USA is a nation where everyone is on the breadline, nobody has any money and where inflation is rampant. There is some of that but not to the extent you'd believe.

Trump's personal deficiencies are bad enough, as are some of his extreme ideas, but as bad as anything is the idea he will "drill baby drill" and "frack frack frack" his way to ecological armageddon.

He's a f*cking dinosaur on the environment, but US voters don't seem to care. The US economy was doing OK and certainly not so bad as to risk economic, military and environmental chaos. They want to look inwards, not outwards, and that's dangerous for the rest of us.

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Pavilionaire said:

I think that calling someone stupid is counter-productive and wrong, but it is clear that some voters are better informed than others.

It is also clear that if people choose to vote purely on "it's the economy stupid"

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Pavilionaire said:

and only on matters that effect them directly, without considering the environment, education, foreign policy, justice etc then the world really is f***ed.

Trump made it sound like the USA is a nation where everyone is on the breadline, nobody has any money and where inflation is rampant. There is some of that but not to the extent you'd believe.

Trump's personal deficiencies are bad enough, as are some of his extreme ideas, but as bad as anything is the idea he will "drill baby drill" and "frack frack frack" his way to ecological armageddon.

He's a f*cking dinosaur on the environment, but US voters don't seem to care. The US economy was doing OK and certainly not so bad as to risk economic, military and environmental chaos. They want to look inwards, not outwards, and that's dangerous for the rest of us.

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BadFish said:

I agree about calling people stupid but from where I sit they have just made a stupid decison. A little reading suggests that the main issues people voted on in the US were democracy and the economy.

In terms of democracy they have voted for someone who tired to inturrupt the transfer of power and encourage a riiot/coup/attack on the capitol. Surely this is a bit daft.

In terms of the economy, his suggest policies of tarrifs on good from abroad, deporting illegal immigrants and spending are pretty likely to f*** it up.

Add to that his personal misdemeanours, felons, the fact that many people who have worked closely with him have warned of his danger and his inability to finish a coherent sentence are we really supposed to look at th whole situation and think, yep that looks like a good intelligent choice.

The evidence may end up showing that he was a brilliant choice, as he reenergises Flint and all those other other places doing it hard, stops the immigrants eating people's pets, ends the war in Ukraine and puts Outin back in his box and ushers in a golden age for America. At this point I will wipe the egg off my face and applaud the intelligent choice by the US electorate and marvel at their ability to see things better than me.

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wellquickwoody said:

I have not read the whole thread so this may already have been covered.

Does anyone else find it creepy that the worlds richest person and owner of an influential social media brand has joined forces with a bullying, self centred right wing ’politician’ to run the biggest economy on the planet? All a bit ‘James Bond’ and Spectre like?

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wellquickwoody said:

Does anyone else find it creepy that the worlds richest person and owner of an influential social media brand has joined forces with a bullying, self centred right wing ’politician’ to run the biggest economy on the planet?

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wellquickwoody said:

I have not read the whole thread so this may already have been covered.

Does anyone else find it creepy that the worlds richest person and owner of an influential social media brand has joined forces with a bullying, self centred right wing ’politician’ to run the biggest economy on the planet? All a bit ‘James Bond’ and Spectre like?

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jcdenton08 said:

The benefits that Americans might possibly reap are similar to those in 2016. Namely a stronger economy. (“It’s the economy, stupid”).

This isn’t going to make headlines internationally, but citizens might feel it in their pocket, in the grocery stores, at the gas pumps.

The fact is Trump won votes because millions of people were, factually, financially better off under Trump than they were under Biden.

These same millions of people don’t give a shit about Ukraine/Russia, they don’t give a shit about Trump’s legal issues (it’s either a conspiracy to keep their guy down, or they simply don’t care - to some, he shows he’s a real man) and are generally pro-life, etc. City-slick in’ social issues which do not affect them do not matter to them.

But the main thing is the economy, stupid. Farmers in Arkansas don’t give a flying bollock about political intricacies and “woke shit”, they want more money in their pocket, their gun rights protected and to feel listened to.

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BadFish said:

All true, I wonder if Trump's policies are going to deliver what they want? My understanding of economic matters are limited (I am pretty stupid when it comes to such things) but as I have mentioned they don't seem to be the best ideas.

Only time will tell I guess.

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Weststander said:

“Democracy in crisis” or election results you‘re gutted about? An awful result for me too for many reasons, but America has spoken.

Another case of little groups of UK chattering classes (“All my family and friends agree with me”, “Ive never met a Brexiteer”, ”In the pub my mates agreed with me that withdrawal of WFP for almost all is fair” …. missing the sentiment out there, in the UK, EU and US people are shifting to the left and right. Cuts both ways, some old keyboard warriors in Sussex cowardly condone violence against football visitors in Amsterdam.

Weird, unpleasant times.

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Pavilionaire said:

I'm 56. Election results ebb and flow, there is disappointment and delight in equal measure. I'm gutted about Trump, pleased about Labour, but that's not the point.

My point here is about truth, honesty, expectation, manipulation of the truth, perception, lies and fantasy. It's about the innate tendency in society to look inwards, not outwards. And the more people look inwards, the more they will resent or fear the rest of society and that is good news for extremists.

It's about election campaigns where parties are too afraid to speak the truth or spell out the reality because it is unpopular or unpalatable, so they spin an artificial narrative or they just keep quiet.

And it's about social media, foreign interference and the likes of Elon Musk controlling outlets, labelling real news as 'fake news' so people don't know what is real and what isn't.

Voters deserve better. But I don't think voters are informed enough, they don't care enough and they don't challenge their politicians or their media. Why is political debate and narrative still shaped by Fleet Street headlines when only the old still buy newspapers?

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LamieRobertson said:

Nothing for her in doors?

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Pavilionaire said:

I'm 56. Election results ebb and flow, there is disappointment and delight in equal measure. I'm gutted about Trump, pleased about Labour, but that's not the point.

My point here is about truth, honesty, expectation, manipulation of the truth, perception, lies and fantasy. It's about the innate tendency in society to look inwards, not outwards. And the more people look inwards, the more they will resent or fear the rest of society and that is good news for extremists.

It's about election campaigns where parties are too afraid to speak the truth or spell out the reality because it is unpopular or unpalatable, so they spin an artificial narrative or they just keep quiet.

And it's about social media, foreign interference and the likes of Elon Musk controlling outlets, labelling real news as 'fake news' so people don't know what is real and what isn't.

Voters deserve better. But I don't think voters are informed enough, they don't care enough and they don't challenge their politicians or their media. Why is political debate and narrative still shaped by Fleet Street headlines when only the old still buy newspapers?

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Pavilionaire said:

I think that calling someone stupid is counter-productive and wrong, but it is clear that some voters are better informed than others.

It is also clear that if people choose to vote purely on "it's the economy stupid" and only on matters that effect them directly, without considering the environment, education, foreign policy, justice etc then the world really is f***ed.

Trump made it sound like the USA is a nation where everyone is on the breadline, nobody has any money and where inflation is rampant. There is some of that but not to the extent you'd believe.

Trump's personal deficiencies are bad enough, as are some of his extreme ideas, but as bad as anything is the idea he will "drill baby drill" and "frack frack frack" his way to ecological armageddon.

He's a f*cking dinosaur on the environment, but US voters don't seem to care. The US economy was doing OK and certainly not so bad as to risk economic, military and environmental chaos. They want to look inwards, not outwards, and that's dangerous for the rest of us.

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Wrong-Direction said:

Oh 2 gas masks

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Weststander said:

1. Social media. When even thick as sh1t Le Tissier has a load of political followers, the world is in trouble. Complete lies by all and sundry spread like wildfire, experts/scientists ignored.
2. Mass migration. Who would’ve thought 15 years ago that Germany, France, Spain, Italy, Sweden and the Netherlands would have incredibly popular parties from the far right or getting on for that? No one I’d suggest. It’s a reaction. Not from me though. Tyndall and Webster in the 70’s were obscure fringe characters, in 2024 Tommy Robinson, Tate, Farage have huge followings.

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Guinness Boy said:

I’ve said Musk is a Bond villain for a good long time.

Taking over the media, launching space missions, backing fascists while dressed in a natty t-shirt? Fleming would have rejected it as hackneyed.

I’m 53 now and I mostly don’t give a f*ck about anything but I’m genuinely worried for my kids.

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jcdenton08 said:

The benefits that Americans might possibly reap are similar to those in 2016. Namely a stronger economy. (“It’s the economy, stupid”).

This isn’t going to make headlines internationally, but citizens might feel it in their pocket, in the grocery stores, at the gas pumps.

The fact is Trump won votes because millions of people were, factually, financially better off under Trump than they were under Biden.

These same millions of people don’t give a shit about Ukraine/Russia, they don’t give a shit about Trump’s legal issues (it’s either a conspiracy to keep their guy down, or they simply don’t care - to some, he shows he’s a real man) and are generally pro-life, etc. City-slick in’ social issues which do not affect them do not matter to them.

But the main thing is the economy, stupid. Farmers in Arkansas don’t give a flying bollock about political intricacies and “woke shit”, they want more money in their pocket, their gun rights protected and to feel listened to.

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Pavilionaire said:

I'm leaving party politics and my personal opinions aside when I post this, but it seems as though on either side of the Atlantic there is a widening gap between what politicians say in their election campaigning, and what they deliver when in power.

There was a time when you knew what Tory and Labour, Republican and Democrat stood for. They maintained core principles, but now those have become blurred and inconsistent.

We are told the US electorate cared most about the economy so elected Trump, rejecting some pretty good numbers in the context of the G20 re growth, unemployment, interest rates coming down. US voters believe Trump, yet if we take Trump at his word we know tariffs, lower taxes and plans for mass deportations will all be inflationary and interest rates will have to rise as a result. This will make things worse, not better, for the average US citizen.

He won't end the war in Ukraine or the Israel - Arab conflict in a matter of days, he won't end inflation, just like he didn't build a walls and make the Mexicans pay for it.

Similarly, Boris did not "Get Brexit Done" or "Take Back Control", Cameron stayed quiet in the 2010 campaign then immediately foisted austerity upon us, Lib Dems promised an end to tuition fees but did a 180, Labour stayed deliberately quiet in the 2024 campaign, then borrowed shitloads of cash and foisted huge NI increases on employers and higher tuition fees on the students that just voted for them. This disconnect between words and actions goes across the political spectrum.

We also seem to get every incoming government blaming the previous government, thus excusing all sorts of draconian action immediately they seize power.

And we just know Trump is going to get away without a custodial sentence despite all of his various crimes and misdemeanours, in the same way we know the Johnson government will get away with wasting billions and billions on dodgy Covid contracts, many of which enriched his party friends and associates.

And at the end of all this voters lose trust. Without trust what have you got? Who do you believe, and what basis have you got to really believe anything that they say?

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