[Technology] If you could afford it would your next car be an EV?

happypig · Wednesday at 10:43 AM

I hired a Nissan Micra on holiday and quite liked it so I looked at the cost of one compared to a cheap EV.
Set a budget of 10K.
I can get a 2017 Micra for that, or a 2020 Renault Zoe for £8.5 !
Given that, I might bring forward my EV purchase to next year.

Dave the OAP · Wednesday at 10:49 AM

Probably a small one for toddling around town, to the gym, park and ride for the Albion etc. wouldn’t get one to do big mileages until the infrastructure is like France!…..an hybrid though I fancy if you can get one before the taxi drivers get in first!

Flounce · Wednesday at 12:41 PM

Dave the OAP said:
Probably a small one for toddling around town, to the gym, park and ride for the Albion etc. wouldn’t get one to do big mileages until the infrastructure is like France!…..an hybrid though I fancy if you can get one before the taxi drivers get in first!

Go for it Dave!

Audax · Wednesday at 2:54 PM

Bozza said:
What sort of payback period would you expect from that £13.5k investment?

It's changed a bit since I had my solar installed (for starters, the Tories killed off the FIT scheme I signed up to [and contractually they're still obliged to pay me for], and the new one isn't anywhere near as good).

I originally went with panels only. A year or two later we then added a solar diverter that redirects unused generation into the hot water system. Payback time was roughly 7 years. Payback was via a) payments for generation, b) payments for assumed 50% export, c) reduced home electricity bills via using generated power, d) reduced gas bills from the diverter.

Since then we've gone EV, and generally speaking we could keep the Zoe going through nearly half the year from solar only (this year being the first year we had to make significant overnight top ups, partly due to it being a rubbish summer for generation and partly because we got an above ground pool and ran a heater during day time, which sucked up all of the solar).

Last I looked at it (a couple of years ago) retro-fitting a home battery to what we already have was not going to be cost-effective with payback time longer than guarantee on the retro-fit, largely as we would have lost our grandfathered FIT scheme. It'd be different if installing a brand new integrated system from scratch (eg the myenergi whole-home system I mentioned in a previous post).

I'd expect a payback period of 8-12 years for a brand new system, depending on specifics of your home. The main way to get your payback today is to keep all of the power you generate on-site (so making sure you have a big enough battery, either in-home or on the drive - run your sums very carefully and err on the side of too big, as too small is an expensive fix). Minimise your import as far as possible. Take advantage of cheap over-night tariffs to top up the battery, then discharge from the battery when import costs are high. If you're clever, you can even go with a very smart systems and make a profit from trading electricity (import when price is low, export when high). Especially now that grid-balancing via home systems is becoming a "thing" (I've just signed up to let myenergi have a little control over my Zappi for exactly this - potential to earn a few quid over the winter by letting them use the car to help balance the grid).

Audax · Wednesday at 3:00 PM

happypig said:
I hired a Nissan Micra on holiday and quite liked it so I looked at the cost of one compared to a cheap EV.
Set a budget of 10K.
I can get a 2017 Micra for that, or a 2020 Renault Zoe for £8.5 !
Given that, I might bring forward my EV purchase to next year.

2020 Zoe *should* be the ZE50 version (check to make sure it is!). In which case - lovely car. Just handed mine back after 4 years. Summer range easily over 200 miles (the quoted range is pretty accurate), winter range drops a fair bit depending on your usage (probably more like 160-180 miles). Mine definitely liked stretching its legs - mileage was worse on short trips around town than it was cruising up the M25 and back commuting (Uckfield to Uxbridge).

Had exactly zero problems with mine, if I could have bought it after lease I would have ... well, I would have if I hadn't been given the option to salary-sac an ID3 instead.

chip · Wednesday at 5:05 PM

Audax said:
It's changed a bit since I had my solar installed (for starters, the Tories killed off the FIT scheme I signed up to [and contractually they're still obliged to pay me for], and the new one isn't anywhere near as good).

I originally went with panels only. A year or two later we then added a solar diverter that redirects unused generation into the hot water system. Payback time was roughly 7 years. Payback was via a) payments for generation, b) payments for assumed 50% export, c) reduced home electricity bills via using generated power, d) reduced gas bills from the diverter.

Since then we've gone EV, and generally speaking we could keep the Zoe going through nearly half the year from solar only (this year being the first year we had to make significant overnight top ups, partly due to it being a rubbish summer for generation and partly because we got an above ground pool and ran a heater during day time, which sucked up all of the solar).

Last I looked at it (a couple of years ago) retro-fitting a home battery to what we already have was not going to be cost-effective with payback time longer than guarantee on the retro-fit, largely as we would have lost our grandfathered FIT scheme. It'd be different if installing a brand new integrated system from scratch (eg the myenergi whole-home system I mentioned in a previous post).

I'd expect a payback period of 8-12 years for a brand new system, depending on specifics of your home. The main way to get your payback today is to keep all of the power you generate on-site (so making sure you have a big enough battery, either in-home or on the drive - run your sums very carefully and err on the side of too big, as too small is an expensive fix). Minimise your import as far as possible. Take advantage of cheap over-night tariffs to top up the battery, then discharge from the battery when import costs are high. If you're clever, you can even go with a very smart systems and make a profit from trading electricity (import when price is low, export when high). Especially now that grid-balancing via home systems is becoming a "thing" (I've just signed up to let myenergi have a little control over my Zappi for exactly this - potential to earn a few quid over the winter by letting them use the car to help balance the grid).

This is what what I was trying to say but makes sense. It's so helpful to hear real experiences.

I also think it's a neccessary part of greater EV penetration as lots of local microgenerators and V2G or V2home can play a big part in balancing the grid. Probably not so much in high-density areas. It's one of the reasons I think that new developments should have to install these PV+storage systems, prefferably community based to maximise potential energy capture, because the local grid as it stands won't cope with future demmand without upgrading. EVs offer great opportunity for storing excess wind (and hydro) generation and this will only improve with more EVs and larger batteries.

darkwolf666 · Wednesday at 5:27 PM

I would love to go fully electric, but unfortunately 2 things get in the way, firstly boot space. As parents to a child who comes with a lot of baggage, including over sized pushchair, we need a large boot, which tends to be a luxury in electric cars.
We currently have a Peugeot 5008, which has a humongous boot. Unfortunately, the new versions of the 5008 are either electric or petrol/electric hybrids, with the battery stored under the rear luggage space. This has resulted in a loss of vertical storage space.

Secondly, as someone making use of the Motability scheme, the larger vehicles that are fully electric, on the scheme, just don't have the range we would need or the Advance Payment is just far too restrictive.

As a compromise we are plumping for a Dacia Jogger TCe 140 hybrid - a step in the right direction, I suppose.

nicko31 · Wednesday at 10:22 PM

Audax said:
Ahhh, that's good news. I'm impatiently awaiting a call to arrange delivery of my new ID3 Pro S 77kW. Last I heard it was due to arrive at the dealer yesterday and they'd be getting in touch to arrange delivery to me as soon as final checks were done.

Will yours have 5 seats? I heard this is possible now. Great car, my only gripe is the boot is a bit small. Get a space saving spare if you can (there is room for it!!)

nicko31 · Wednesday at 10:29 PM

Fungus said:
You're unlikely to power the car by solar for at least six months of the year, after powering the house during the day, but you'll make a few pence exporting the excess solar to the grid. With a battery, you'll be able to power the house for the other 18 hours each day with insufficient solar. With an EV tariff from Octopus, you can top up the house and EV with cheap electricity overnight, with full control over it. You can also export from the house battery to the grid at 15/kwh during the evening if you so wish, replacing it at 7p/kwh overnight. A house battery provides a lot more flexibility, and can even protect against power-cuts with the right set-up - most basic solar systems don't. Battery will add a few grand to the cost, though! But overall, it'll take a big chunk out of your bills.

Initially I was excited about charging the EV with solar but it makes no sense when you can charge for 6.5p and export for 15p. Also you need a minimum 1.6kw to charge a car, if it drops below this the charge can time out or you start drawing from the grid in the peak period. The UK just isn't sunny enough

Fungus · Wednesday at 11:12 PM

nicko31 said:
Initially I was excited about charging the EV with solar but it makes no sense when you can charge for 6.5p and export for 15p. Also you need a minimum 1.6kw to charge a car, if it drops below this the charge can time out or you start drawing from the grid in the peak period. The UK just isn't sunny enough

If solar drops below the minimum 1.4kw level for charging, my system just pauses rather than drawing from the grid - one of the many settings in my Zappi charger (the default, I believe). I only got my system in mid-July, but there were plenty of days it was worth plugging in for a mini boost, even though I didn’t get home until after lunch. I’d already been exporting all morning. Currently, I only charge on the cheap overnight.

happypig · Thursday at 10:32 AM

nicko31 said:
Initially I was excited about charging the EV with solar but it makes no sense when you can charge for 6.5p and export for 15p. Also you need a minimum 1.6kw to charge a car, if it drops below this the charge can time out or you start drawing from the grid in the peak period. The UK just isn't sunny enough

15p ! I get 71.85p (and that's whether I use the electric or not)

Audax · Thursday at 11:19 AM

chip said:
This is what what I was trying to say but makes sense. It's so helpful to hear real experiences.

I also think it's a neccessary part of greater EV penetration as lots of local microgenerators and V2G or V2home can play a big part in balancing the grid. Probably not so much in high-density areas. It's one of the reasons I think that new developments should have to install these PV+storage systems, prefferably community based to maximise potential energy capture, because the local grid as it stands won't cope with future demmand without upgrading. EVs offer great opportunity for storing excess wind (and hydro) generation and this will only improve with more EVs and larger batteries.

Was hearing recently about a new estate in East Hoathly where (at least some of) the houses have solar, heat pump, and car charger from day 1. Unfortunately retrofitting heat pumps is a right ball ache for older homes.

nicko31 said:
Initially I was excited about charging the EV with solar but it makes no sense when you can charge for 6.5p and export for 15p. Also you need a minimum 1.6kw to charge a car, if it drops below this the charge can time out or you start drawing from the grid in the peak period. The UK just isn't sunny enough

Fungus said:
If solar drops below the minimum 1.4kw level for charging, my system just pauses rather than drawing from the grid - one of the many settings in my Zappi charger (the default, I believe). I only got my system in mid-July, but there were plenty of days it was worth plugging in for a mini boost, even though I didn’t get home until after lunch. I’d already been exporting all morning. Currently, I only charge on the cheap overnight.

Same. I have a 4 year old Zappi. One of the things I would seriously advise to everyone (whether you have solar or not) purchasing a new EV for the first time: do not be tempted to install the "free" charger the dealer will offer (they're almost always from the cheap end and not fully smart). In many cases they also offer free credit on a charging network instead, so take that and then invest in a smart home charger (such as the myenergi Zappi). It's not a huge cost once the government subsidy is applied, and the control it gives you over charging etc is fantastic.

thedonkeycentrehalf · Thursday at 11:54 AM

Audax said:
Was hearing recently about a new estate in East Hoathly where (at least some of) the houses have solar, heat pump, and car charger from day 1.

The houses on the new estate at the north of Angmering seem to have car chargers fitted as standard.

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