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[Albion] The high line is great



highflyer

highflyer

Well-known member
Jan 21, 2016
2,535
Han Solo said:
The "problem with the high line" has been mentioned a lot.

The core of this "problem", bit like the "problem of fannying around at the back" that emerged five years ago, is that Fabian Hurzeler is a brave coach and football fans are anxious cowards. But its time to accept it.

People have been going on and on about "you can't play like that unless you have Van der Ven in defense!!!", as if it exists a central defender who can turn around, accelerate his run and catch up with whatever sprinter that made his run behind the defense line.

Can we put to bed that the magical paranormal solution to the made up problem isn't to sign some sort of Martian cheetah?

The high line and offside trap is here to stay. Just like in most of the previous games, it worked excellent yesterday and the opponents were allowed no more than the "normal" amount of chances that will likely happen regardless of how you play.

There was nothing "naive" about the first half yesterday, that wasn't the cause of the issues; the cause was being as cowardly as us watching it. "Oh no, a Tottenham player is pressuring me, I need to hoof it randomly into the stands or to their defenders". "Oh no, they're doing those runs again, I don't trust our trap gonna run home and cover the goal". Lazy, cowardly, useless.

Second half, at least until 3-2, we pushed our "naive high line" higher, took more risk in "fannying about at the back" and ran past their allegedly invincible super quick back line through sheer determination and willpower.

I hope there won't be TOO much of the "we only concede goals in football matches due to high defense line" over the season. Teams like Wolves that have 48 players inside their own box also concede goals. In fact, everyone does. So at the end of the season, lets just wait and see what the "Conceded goals" column has to say about the success of our "naive high defense line" compared to lets say the "best football I've ever seen", which was the narrative last season.
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I like a lot of what you say here. Not sure I am a fan of how you have said it.

New manager, new system, many new players. I think saying 'lazy, cowardly, useless' about the players, even in the first half, is unfair.

Fair enough about supporters though. I was sh*tting myself.
 




H

Han Solo

Well-known member
May 25, 2024
2,383
highflyer said:
I like a lot of what you say here. Not sure I am a fan of how you have said it.

New manager, new system, many new players. I think saying 'lazy, cowardly, useless' about the players, even in the first half, is unfair.

Fair enough about supporters though. I was sh*tting myself.
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But it was lazy, cowardly and useless... and they knew it. But I don't mean it in a judging way really - it looked fear induced rather than some sort of underestimation or demotivation. Too much "whatever I do is wrong so f*** everything and just get it over with" rather than a focused and energetic way of being constructive and trying to actually beat the opponent.

My guess is that there was some sentence or instruction in the pre-match talk that just made the players nervous/worried. I'm sure Fab & co will look into what went wrong and how to not go out on the pitch with that shy fearful attitude again.
 


Stumpy Tim

Stumpy Tim

Well-known member
Jul 6, 2003
14,153
Back in Brighton. Well Hove actually
A high line only works if the team press and don't give the opposition any time. If the opposition has time and space they'll pick an easy pass over the top with ease.

In the first half we were nowhere near at it, apart from Baleba. Jack was a hologram in midfield, and the wingers didn't press either. In the second half every one of them threw themselves into tackles and Tottenham couldn't respond. It was night and day.
 


jcdenton08

jcdenton08

Offended Liver Sausage
NSC Patron
Oct 17, 2008
14,140
Stumpy Tim said:
A high line only works if the team press and don't give the opposition any time. If the opposition has time and space they'll pick an easy pass over the top with ease.

In the first half we were nowhere near at it, apart from Baleba. Jack was a hologram in midfield, and the wingers didn't press either. In the second half every one of them threw themselves into tackles and Tottenham couldn't respond. It was night and day.
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And Mitoma of all people leading the charge and winning his battles.
 


studio150

studio150

Well-known member
Jul 30, 2011
30,186
On the Border
Believe in the process.

Going back to the Chelsea game, in a post match interview with Sky, FH was asked if he had considered going to a low block when the goals were flying in, a one word answer NO.

We are tied to the high line, there will be ups and downs, but the manager believes in this approach, and after the second half, the players know what can be achieved.
The main thing is that we have more ups and downs during the season.

Get to Xmas and still in 6th, and everyone (about from the consistent moaners) will be saying not understand why we were concerned back at the start of the season.
 




Nobby Cybergoat

Nobby Cybergoat

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2021
8,608
Han Solo said:
The "problem with the high line" has been mentioned a lot.

The core of this "problem", bit like the "problem of fannying around at the back" that emerged five years ago, is that Fabian Hurzeler is a brave coach and football fans are anxious cowards. But its time to accept it.

People have been going on and on about "you can't play like that unless you have Van der Ven in defense!!!", as if it exists a central defender who can turn around, accelerate his run and catch up with whatever sprinter that made his run behind the defense line.

Can we put to bed that the magical paranormal solution to the made up problem isn't to sign some sort of Martian cheetah?

The high line and offside trap is here to stay. Just like in most of the previous games, it worked excellent yesterday and the opponents were allowed no more than the "normal" amount of chances that will likely happen regardless of how you play.

There was nothing "naive" about the first half yesterday, that wasn't the cause of the issues; the cause was being as cowardly as us watching it. "Oh no, a Tottenham player is pressuring me, I need to hoof it randomly into the stands or to their defenders". "Oh no, they're doing those runs again, I don't trust our trap gonna run home and cover the goal". Lazy, cowardly, useless.

Second half, at least until 3-2, we pushed our "naive high line" higher, took more risk in "fannying about at the back" and ran past their allegedly invincible super quick back line through sheer determination and willpower.

I hope there won't be TOO much of the "we only concede goals in football matches due to high defense line" over the season. Teams like Wolves that have 48 players inside their own box also concede goals. In fact, everyone does. So at the end of the season, lets just wait and see what the "Conceded goals" column has to say about the success of our "naive high defense line" compared to lets say the "best football I've ever seen", which was the narrative last season.
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I agree with your post and I think your comparison with playing out from the back 5 years ago is a fair one

I think playing a high line will continue to cost us a lot of goals. But the manager is calculating that over the season it will gain us more goals at the other end than we lose. On the evidence so far I'd say we have to believe in him.

3-2, 4-2, 6 all scorelines are here to stay
 


Ali_rrr

Ali_rrr

Well-known member
Feb 4, 2011
2,826
Utrecht, NL
Hamilton said:
I don't think it is just the high line. It's coaching the players to use the high line. And that doesn't mean using it all the time.

There's no coincidence between the change that Fab made at half time and the change in performance. I like Ferdi, but it felt like he was playing in multiple positions down the flank yesterday. As a result, I felt Hinshelwood's first half was shocking as he had no idea where Ferdi was. It's why they had so much freedom down that side.

With Pervis on, we were still playing a higher line but with a more defensively minded player. I actually thought Pervis had one of his best games for us so far this season.

I wonder what might have happened had Webster not been injured. Igor is - IMHO a tad faster than Adam. Playing a high line with Lewis and Webster is always going to give me heart attacks.

In the second half, we played a higher line because our midfield turned up and we were able to link the front 4 with Baleba and Hinshelwood much more.

The high line, like fannying around at the back, will get criticism if it's not being used correctly. Just MHO.
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To add to this, Ferdi kept them onside multiple times yesterday as a consequence of not learning it in pre season. No coincidence when he went off it went better defensively.
 






L

London Irish

Well-known member
Nov 25, 2003
22,757
Trapped inside the Project for the New American Ce
There's going to be a lot of brazen opinionating given how we came back from the dead yesterday, almost as it people believe we are suddenly an invincible team again. We aren't lol

Let's see how it goes on. Yes Fab will stick to his guns but it needs to work better than over the last week or so or we need to bring in better players to suit it in a few months
 


Tom Hark Preston Park

Tom Hark Preston Park

Will Post For Cash
Jul 6, 2003
72,187
London Irish said:
There's going to be a lot of brazen opinionating given how we came back from the dead yesterday, almost as it people believe we are suddenly an invincible team again. We aren't lol

Let's see how it goes on. Yes Fab will stick to his guns but it needs to work better than over the last week or so or we need to bring in better players to suit it in a few months
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The players hauled the manager's balls out of the fire yesterday - and don't he know it. The one smart move he did was bring on Estupinan for the second half, fair play for that. But the win was down to the players
 


jcdenton08

jcdenton08

Offended Liver Sausage
NSC Patron
Oct 17, 2008
14,140
London Irish said:
There's going to be a lot of brazen opinionating given how we came back from the dead yesterday, almost as it people believe we are suddenly an invincible team again. We aren't lol

Let's see how it goes on. Yes Fab will stick to his guns but it needs to work better than over the last week or so or we need to bring in better players to suit it in a few months
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Plus we are facing a very tough run of fixtures against teams much better than us (and the majority of the division) so a few batterings are a real possibility no matter what
 




H

Han Solo

Well-known member
May 25, 2024
2,383
Tom Hark Preston Park said:
The players hauled the manager's balls out of the fire yesterday - and don't he know it. The one smart move he did was bring on Estupinan for the second half, fair play for that. But the win was down to the players
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So the 0-2 in the first half was the result of the manager and his high line, and the 3-0 in the second half was entirely down to the players.

I'm sure you would have said the same thing if the identical thing happened last season.......
 


Tom Hark Preston Park

Tom Hark Preston Park

Will Post For Cash
Jul 6, 2003
72,187
Han Solo said:
So the 0-2 in the first half was the result of the manager and his high line, and the 3-0 in the second half was entirely down to the players.

I'm sure you would have said the same thing if the identical thing happened last season.......
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The manager had nothing to do with Georginio Rutter's indomitable desire to scrap and fight and hook that crunching tackle/cross in for Danny Welbeck to head down the winner
 


H

Han Solo

Well-known member
May 25, 2024
2,383
Tom Hark Preston Park said:
The manager had nothing to do with Georginio Rutter's indomitable desire to scrap and fight and hook that crunching tackle/cross in for Danny Welbeck to head in the winner
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But he was at fault for our desire to hoof the ball into the stands or to their defenders for the entirey of first half? Or is that also down to the players?
 




Tom Hark Preston Park

Tom Hark Preston Park

Will Post For Cash
Jul 6, 2003
72,187
Han Solo said:
But he was at fault for our desire to hoof the ball into the stands or to their defenders for the entirey of first half? Or is that also down to the players?
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Yada yada. Pick and choose whichever passage(s) of play you like, but the fact remains that, for us, the high line is not great. As you well know
 


H

Han Solo

Well-known member
May 25, 2024
2,383
Tom Hark Preston Park said:
Yada yada. Pick and choose whichever passage(s) of play you like, but the fact remains that, for us, the high line is not great. As you well know
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As you well know I share none of your football views (playing out from the back is bad, short passing is bad, having possession is bad, having a high line is bad etc.).
 


Guinness Boy

Guinness Boy

Tofu eating wokerati
Helpful Moderator
NSC Patron
Jul 23, 2003
37,204
Up and Coming Sunny Portslade
You can’t play a high line with four right footed defenders in a flat formation, especially when one of them either goes walkies, loses the offside line or turns in because he’s scared to play a line bal with his weaker foot.

Game turned on bringing on Pervis. Credit for that to the coach.

Liverpool and City would have had eight in that first half. Wolves and Saints? Not so much.

OP is right though, it’s here to stay as long as FH does and we’ll get better at it.
 






Nobby Cybergoat

Nobby Cybergoat

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2021
8,608
I think high line or play it out from the back aren't good ideas no matter what

Southampton fans would probably agree, they would have been better off just trying to hit their striker and stay compact.

Had we got promoted in 2017 and tried playing it out under Hughton, we'd have surely finished rock bottom. Better off hitting Muzza early and defending deep. Knock it if you like but it kept us up

The point i'm making is that both these strategies rely on having the players to play them.

Do we have the players to play from the back? Yes. OK, we'll get caught sometimes but the positive outweigh the negatives

Do we have the players to play the high line? Less clear, but I think yes. Again, we'll get done sometimes. And when we do it won't look pretty. But the league table suggests, again the positive outweighs the negatives
 




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