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[News] Middle East conflict



D

dsr-burnley

Well-known member
Aug 15, 2014
2,635
Zeberdi said:
Or

‘This war would stop tomorrow if Netanyahu and the Religious Zionists in his cabinet would stop killing thousands of Palestinian civilians and recognise that the Palestinians have a right to self-determination and an independent State and would return the 600+ Palestinian children being held without trial in military detention centres. Israel could easily demand and get US/UN and UK protection during the ceasefire. ‘

You can see the problem here can’t you?
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As you can presumably, Israel doesn't need UN protection at present. They are far better armed than their attackers.

Have you a link to the 600+ children number? The biggest number I can find is 227 as at June 2024, from the "Defense for Children Palestine" website.

Number of Palestinian Children (12-17) in Israeli Military Detention

www.dci-palestine.org www.dci-palestine.org
 




Triggaaar

Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
53,230
Goldstone
heathgate said:
In large swathes of the ME, Islam certainly keeps cultural progression supressed somewhat.... people living as aligned to a dogma born out of a mythical person of dubious reputation within medieval parameters for life.
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So? Does that mean we can steal their land?
 


heathgate

heathgate

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Apr 13, 2015
3,874
Triggaaar said:
So? Does that mean we can steal their land?
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In the normal ebb and flow of geo-political/ military comings and goings, ...yes, this is often the price that a defeated aggressor pays.... it is often a mistake to reward those who initiate violence and aggression... don't you think?
 




Nobby Cybergoat

Nobby Cybergoat

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2021
8,638
Israel might do international relations in a less aggressive way if they decided to replace Netanyahu with a honey badger
 






Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
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Oct 8, 2003
56,277
Faversham
wellquickwoody said:
Well we can start with nearly 50, 000 (fifty ‘king thousand) deaths in Gaza. Add on a few hundred maybe for the West Bank. Couple of thousand Lebanese, oh round it up to make it easy, 5k perhaps, and numerous Houthi’s to follow no doubt.

Now I realise that Hamas started this current shit fest but
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Let me stop you there.

(You sound like you are about to outline a simple solution that has a clear and unequivocal narrative with which nobody would disagree. We all have one of those :shrug: )
 


Zeberdi

Zeberdi

“Vorsprung durch Technik”
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Oct 20, 2022
6,971
dsr-burnley said:
As you can presumably, Israel doesn't need UN protection at present. They are far better armed than their attackers.

Have you a link to the 600+ children number? The biggest number I can find is 227 as at June 2024, from the "Defense for Children Palestine" website.

Number of Palestinian Children (12-17) in Israeli Military Detention

www.dci-palestine.org www.dci-palestine.org
Click to expand...

Yes, I can see the problem from both sides - hence my post above - and I see the inherent stalemate in the argument when people polarise their viewpoints into “us“ and “them” without listening to what both sides need in order to move forward.

Re. the Children in detention - The number of kids from Gaza is unknown but likely to be far higher than the West Bank figures given how many have been taken into detention overall from Gaza - (at the time of the report below, 250+ were still in prison from the West Bank alone). However, prior to the war in Gaza, it was estimated that between 400-700 children were held in military detention each year which jumped significantly last October and which is different to the Israeli prison system.

It does not matter at the end of the day if it is 200 or 800 at any given time because it is impossible to independently verify exact numbers and impossible to do so in Gaza where over 21,000 children have been reported missing. These kids are kept in military detention in appalling conditions, sometimes up to 20 years and not allowed to see their parents - for throwing stones at IDF tanks/personnel.

If Israel wants to de-radicalise some of the elements that define it’s relationship with Hezbollah, Hamas and the Houthis, then not incarcerating (and beating) hundreds of Palestinian children in military detention facilities without trial because they have been shouting abuse and throwing stones at the people that are keeping them under an oppressive form of occupation, would probably be a good start:
  • Since the beginning of the war Israeli forces have detained more than 9,400 Palestinians from the West Bank in addition to thousands other from Gaza whose exact numbers are not confirmed. We know from our latest research before the war that most children in the military detention system face appalling emotional and physical abuse, including 86% of them reporting being beaten by Israeli authorities in detention, and 69% reporting having experienced sexual violence and abuse.

www.savethechildren.org.uk

Palestinian children in Israeli military detention report more violence

Rising numbers of Palestinian children detained without charge in the Israel military system since 7 October have reported that they are facing violence and abuse.
www.savethechildren.org.uk www.savethechildren.org.uk

www.savethechildren.org.uk

Conditions for Palestinian children in Israeli detention deteriorate

Palestinian children in Israeli-run prisons have told Save the Children of facing increasing hunger and abuse, including sexual violence, with conditions deteriorating
www.savethechildren.org.uk www.savethechildren.org.uk
 






Triggaaar

Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
53,230
Goldstone
heathgate said:
In the normal ebb and flow of geo-political/ military comings and goings, ...yes, this is often the price that a defeated aggressor pays.... it is often a mistake to reward those who initiate violence and aggression... don't you think?
Click to expand...

Who's talking about rewarding them? Obviously aggressors shouldn't be rewarded, but that doesn't mean they should have their land taken as punishment. Germany were harshly punished for their part in WW1 (not that they started it) and that punishment lead to WW2. Israel are occupying land that doesn't belong to them, and many people are rising up against them. You reap what you sow.
 


Triggaaar

Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
53,230
Goldstone
de la zouch said:
Lowest civilian to combatant death rate of any modern war
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de la zouch said:
Let’s face it none of the numbers are reliable, some oft quoted are pure make believe. However there is numerous commentary on the ratios. Ultimately the answer is too many as no one wants war
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Ok that's fine, but don't claim it's the lowest civilian to combatant death rate with no evidence to back that up. It seems to me that a huge number of civilians are dying, and no international organisation has been able to verify the figures.
 




Zeberdi

Zeberdi

“Vorsprung durch Technik”
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Oct 20, 2022
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dsr-burnley said:
If Hamas proposed to the UN that they wanted a two state solution, which is de facto what they had since 2005, they would surely get it. With the strength of feeling around the world, especially within the UN, all Hamas has to do is to return the hostages, accept that Israel has the right to exist, and ask the UN to negotiate for them. Israel wouldn't be able to carry on fighting in Gaza under those circumstances.

Obviously they would need a lot of aid to rebuild the country, especially as it's unlikely that Israel will be willing to continue supplying water and power (and surprising if Gaza/Palestine would want to accept it, though most of their aid at present comes through Israel). Equally obviously there would need to be checks to ensure that humanitarian aid is spent on humanitarian support, not on rebuilding the war machine and the tunnels.
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What are you talking about?

The UN can’t impose a political solution on Israel or Hamas - or even a military one - exactly what power do you think the UN has? Israel doesn’t even recognise the authority of UN to abide by its conventions on international war crimes let alone accept the resolutions it passes.

How do you think the UN is going to make Netanyahu and his Zionists give up a domestic policy agenda that continues to expand settlements into the occupied territory? Netanyahu DOES NOT WANT A TWO STATE SOLUTION- how often does that keep having to be repeated here?

Israel has to agree to any peace solution, including an independent state of Palestine..

The UN has recognised the State of Palestine as an observer State to the UN Assembly since 2012 btw but a fat lot of good it’s done when the US and the UK have vetoed or abstained from nearly every ceasefire resolution since 7/10 or vetoed any proposal to accept Palestine as a fully fledged member of the UN.

How has Hamas had a de facto 2 State Solution since 2005? Hamas is a terrorist and administrative party in Gaza - they do not have any power in the West Bank . When we talk about an independent State of Palestine we are talking for the Palestinian people - not an independent state for terrorists.

Yitzhak Rabin and Yasser Arafat btw agreed a two state solution in 1993 but Rabin was assassinated by a Religious Zionist.

I think you are confusing the physically separated areas of the West Bank and Gaza as being “two states” - they are both areas within the illegally Occupied Territories of Palestine.

To call what the Palestinians have now ( ie a destroyed enclave consisting largely of refugee camps cut off from land sea and air, cut off from fresh water, food or the means to be financially be self-sufficient in one part and apartheid rule and indiscriminate killing and beatings in the other part) as a de facto “independent state” is a gross misrepresentation of the facts.

The two State solution means an independent State of Palestine separate from Israel on one hand and the State of Israel on the other.

Palestine is not an independent State in anything other than by name by some authorities - it has no autonomy even ’de facto’.

I recognise Hamas are just as incalcitrant as Israel’s current Government and just as obstructive but it really does require both sides to agree to a solution or it won’t work.
 
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heathgate

heathgate

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Apr 13, 2015
3,874
Triggaaar said:
Who's talking about rewarding them? Obviously aggressors shouldn't be rewarded, but that doesn't mean they should have their land taken as punishment. Germany were harshly punished for their part in WW1 (not that they started it) and that punishment lead to WW2. Israel are occupying land that doesn't belong to them, and many people are rising up against them. You reap what you sow.
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They don't care though mate, they really don't,.... they will put it down and their lives will continue as before.
 


Sorrel

Sorrel

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2003
2,943
Back in East Sussex
wellquickwoody said:
And what about the apartheid in Gaza, or the land grab on the West Bank? The west has done nothing to stop these immoral actions, should we just accept that Israel can do what it likes?
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That's true enough - for the West Bank at least. There's a reasonable case that the actions of the Israeli settlers is comparable to that of the Islamic terrorists. The UK has acted against some of the people there: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-sanctions-extremist-settlers-in-the-west-bank

They are the same kind of people as those who bombed the King David Hotel - the action who's leader later became Prime Minister of the country.

I don't get why everyone is so obsessed with injustice in Israel and doesn't march against it in other places. For example, Indonesia invaded New Guinea in 1960 (similar timeframe to the West Bank invasion and still commit abuses there now: https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/09/18/indonesia-racism-discrimination-against-indigenous-papuans), yet there are no marches in London to help there, no seems to care. Is it perhaps because those who march for "Palestine" are biased to only care about a pro-islamic viewpoint? I think so.

Those who march are 99% against Israel, only 1% bothered about equality for anyone.
 




Cheshire Cat

Cheshire Cat

The most curious thing..
Nov 4, 2006
11,854
Sitting on a bough of a tree a few yards off...
Part of the problem is that none of the combatants want a two state solution. They all want one state, except not all of them want the same state.
 


Triggaaar

Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
53,230
Goldstone
heathgate said:
They don't care though mate, they really don't,.... they will put it down and their lives will continue as before.
Click to expand...

Sorry I don't follow. Who don't care about what, and what will be put down?
 


Zeberdi

Zeberdi

“Vorsprung durch Technik”
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Oct 20, 2022
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Zeberdi

Zeberdi

“Vorsprung durch Technik”
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Reports coming in of Israel carrying out an airstrike on Damascus in Syria last night just as news is coming in of a limited ground invasion by Israel into Southern Lebanon





This other news below may have slipped under the radar because it went largely under-reported in Western MSM but Russia apparently thwarted an Israeli airstrike on Syria a few days ago - the presence of Russian forces in Syria complicates an already very complex arena in the ME

bulgarianmilitary.com

Russians thwart Israeli attack on Tartus, shoot down 13 missiles

Russians reportedly intercepted 13 Israeli missiles over Syrian airspace. This occurred during an Israeli Air Force attempt to launch an attack on Tartus.
bulgarianmilitary.com bulgarianmilitary.com

(note to @Bozza - not sure whether you want these threads to stay separate or combine them? For now, I’ve posted Israel’s attack on Syria as a separate thread)
 








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