de la zouch
Well-known member
- Jul 12, 2007
- 572
I know, I can’t believe it was asked and then justified by others
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[News] Middle East conflict
- Thread starter Greenbag50
- Start date
Not a first...
[Albion] - Brighton NSC fanbase - where are you from?
It's time to discover just where our fanbase come from (not where you live now, but where you were brought up), in the time-honoured tradition of a POLL. The options are: Brighton Somewhere else in Sussex Somewhere outside Sussex Lund, Sweden. For the record, I grew up on the Weald, just...
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aolstudios
Well-known member
& predictable.
It's not the first, second or third time
aolstudios
Well-known member
This°
Every single word
aolstudios
Well-known member
Exactly
aolstudios
Well-known member
The context couldn't be more different, could it
With Gaza in ruins and Lebanon under siege, what defence remains for Israel’s actions? | Nesrine Malik
‘Existential threat’ is a thin excuse: the out-of-control force that is pushing the Middle East to the brink is Israel itself, says Guardian columnist Nesrine Malik
www.theguardian.com
Well we can start with nearly 50, 000 (fifty ‘king thousand) deaths in Gaza. Add on a few hundred maybe for the West Bank. Couple of thousand Lebanese, oh round it up to make it easy, 5k perhaps, and numerous Houthi’s to follow no doubt.
Now I realise that Hamas started this current shit fest but the numbers are way, way different. Innocent victims of Israeli armed forces so far, say 50% of all deaths so roughly 25 -30 thousand v 1200 ish innocent Israelis. And Netanyahu hasn’t finished yet!
There is talk of the efficiency of the campaign conducted by the IDF, that is made possible by modern weaponry not by any wonder effort to minimise casualties. Let’s also face facts, this action is only possible because of the Iron Dome supplied by the US. Take that away and Israel would be having a seriously tough time. Perhaps that is what campaigners need to target, to get the Yanks to stop supplying surface to air rockets. Might be the only way to get Bibi to come to the table.
- Apr 13, 2015
- 3,855
When I see a fact I'll let you know.... that one you posted above is NOT a fact......... it is a fact that the Iron Dome system is an Israeli developed and manufactured system ( Rafael ).... created in direct response to the persistent firing of low tech rockets from Lebanon and Gaza.
dsr-burnley
Well-known member
- Aug 15, 2014
- 2,617
If Israel had no "Iron Dome" defence, they would have taken action sooner and more decisively. It's only because they have efficient defences that they can afford to take their time and to minimise casualties.
Lebanese sources say just over 1,000 killed. Why have you only rounded it up to 5,000? Why not 10,000, or 100,000? Why not 1,000?
$5 billion US investment in 2016.
Why? Because I did not know the exact figure, I guessed.
Really does not change the overall numbers in any big way. Non Israeli casualties far outnumber the Israeli victims of Oct 7.
- Apr 13, 2015
- 3,855
...and?..... the monetary support is no different to the support given by many nations to many other allied nations... it remains a fact that Rafael developed and manufactured Iron Dome.
dsr-burnley
Well-known member
- Aug 15, 2014
- 2,617
German casualties outnumbered UK casualties in WW2. This does not automatically make the UK the evil agressor and the Nazis the innocent victims.
This war would stop tomorrow if Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthi and Iran would accept that Israel has the right to exists and would return the surviving hostages. They could easily demand and get UK protection during the ceasefire; Lebanon already has UN troops on the ground.
- Oct 20, 2022
- 6,833
Typically this topic is still being dominated by polarised opinions on ‘both sides’ - like all the others on the Israel/Gaza/Lebanon social media debates - by a minority of posters/tweeters at extreme ends of the dialogue:
Zionists, anti-muslims or those just culturally entrenched from years of Western confirmation bias; who refuse to see any culpability in Israel’s historical behaviour towards Palestinians; who keep pushing the rhetoric that Palestinians/Muslims are out to kill all Jews and ‘drive them into the sea’ and ignore the Greater Israel agenda that proposes the same for Palestinians; who refuse to see Netanyahu’s role in the stumbling blocks to peace and his unwillingness to embrace a two state solution; who can not acknowledge the fascist and Religious Zionists driving the agenda in the current Netanyahu regime; Who still think this is all about 7/10 and who shockingly play down, even deny the 10s of 1,000s of civilian deaths (As of March 2024; 13,000 children - ( nearly more than any other conflict in the world) that continue to rise. Who lob ad hominem attacks on people that disagree too ardently with them.
On the other ‘side’, those who express views bordering on antisemitism at times; who stereotype Jews/Judaism as an homogenous ‘religious’ group all pro-war; Who dismiss the majority of Israelis who want Netanyahu out; who see ‘Israel’ as an entity blameworthy for all the violence being perpetuated in the middle East; Who would see arms to Israel entirely withdrawn rendering the State defenceless in the face of the axis of resistance; who blame the Labour Government (even in opposition!) for not stopping the war; who can not see the thousands of innocent Israeli civilians living in Israel who do not want this war and who live in fear from daily missile attacks from the OPT or from over the Lebanese and Syrian border; who have lived months of personal pain and grief because the fate of the hostages is either unknown to them or known to have died. Who lob ad hominem attacks on people that disagree too ardently with them.
TL;DR
The ME‘s problems, in particular the Israeli-Palestinian Question, or even understanding the historical causes of conflict between Israel and the Palestinians and therefore the path to finding a solution for the current one, won’t be resolved by people shouting the same arguments over and over again in echo chambers as if in @Guinness Boy’s words, it’s a ‘football match’ - but if we take the arguments from all sides and put them together, the real truth (and maybe even some good ideas for a peace plan) is somewhere in between.
Zionists, anti-muslims or those just culturally entrenched from years of Western confirmation bias; who refuse to see any culpability in Israel’s historical behaviour towards Palestinians; who keep pushing the rhetoric that Palestinians/Muslims are out to kill all Jews and ‘drive them into the sea’ and ignore the Greater Israel agenda that proposes the same for Palestinians; who refuse to see Netanyahu’s role in the stumbling blocks to peace and his unwillingness to embrace a two state solution; who can not acknowledge the fascist and Religious Zionists driving the agenda in the current Netanyahu regime; Who still think this is all about 7/10 and who shockingly play down, even deny the 10s of 1,000s of civilian deaths (As of March 2024; 13,000 children - ( nearly more than any other conflict in the world) that continue to rise. Who lob ad hominem attacks on people that disagree too ardently with them.
On the other ‘side’, those who express views bordering on antisemitism at times; who stereotype Jews/Judaism as an homogenous ‘religious’ group all pro-war; Who dismiss the majority of Israelis who want Netanyahu out; who see ‘Israel’ as an entity blameworthy for all the violence being perpetuated in the middle East; Who would see arms to Israel entirely withdrawn rendering the State defenceless in the face of the axis of resistance; who blame the Labour Government (even in opposition!) for not stopping the war; who can not see the thousands of innocent Israeli civilians living in Israel who do not want this war and who live in fear from daily missile attacks from the OPT or from over the Lebanese and Syrian border; who have lived months of personal pain and grief because the fate of the hostages is either unknown to them or known to have died. Who lob ad hominem attacks on people that disagree too ardently with them.
TL;DR
The ME‘s problems, in particular the Israeli-Palestinian Question, or even understanding the historical causes of conflict between Israel and the Palestinians and therefore the path to finding a solution for the current one, won’t be resolved by people shouting the same arguments over and over again in echo chambers as if in @Guinness Boy’s words, it’s a ‘football match’ - but if we take the arguments from all sides and put them together, the real truth (and maybe even some good ideas for a peace plan) is somewhere in between.
dsr-burnley
Well-known member
- Aug 15, 2014
- 2,617
If Hamas proposed to the UN that they wanted a two state solution, which is de facto what they had since 2005, they would surely get it. With the strength of feeling around the world, especially within the UN, all Hamas has to do is to return the hostages, accept that Israel has the right to exist, and ask the UN to negotiate for them. Israel wouldn't be able to carry on fighting in Gaza under those circumstances.
Obviously they would need a lot of aid to rebuild the country, especially as it's unlikely that Israel will be willing to continue supplying water and power (and surprising if Gaza/Palestine would want to accept it, though most of their aid at present comes through Israel). Equally obviously there would need to be checks to ensure that humanitarian aid is spent on humanitarian support, not on rebuilding the war machine and the tunnels.
Obviously they would need a lot of aid to rebuild the country, especially as it's unlikely that Israel will be willing to continue supplying water and power (and surprising if Gaza/Palestine would want to accept it, though most of their aid at present comes through Israel). Equally obviously there would need to be checks to ensure that humanitarian aid is spent on humanitarian support, not on rebuilding the war machine and the tunnels.
SeagullinExile
Well-known member
Well, they’ll probably get their arses kicked when they go in on the ground, just like 2006. The difference this time is that Lebanon has had 20 years to prepare for the next one. It will be carnage.
Brilliant. Guessing casualty numbers and presenting them as fact can surely only de-escalate a thread as sensitive as this one. Have you considered training as a UN negotiator?
aolstudios
Well-known member
This.
All of it, ffs
- Oct 20, 2022
- 6,833
Or
‘This war would stop tomorrow if Netanyahu and the Religious Zionists in his cabinet would stop killing thousands of Palestinian civilians and recognise that the Palestinians have a right to self-determination and an independent State and would return the 600+ Palestinian children being held without trial in military detention centres. Israel could easily demand and get US/UN and UK protection during the ceasefire. ‘
You can see the problem here can’t you?