[News] Middle East conflict

Wardy's twin · Sep 18, 2024

beorhthelm said:
while following some rules of war accepted at the time, we did a lot of things we dont find acceptable today. maybe at least try to address the question without resorting to whataboutery.

The problem is worse now, the fighters are embedded within the civilian population not on some well established and documented front line, the war zone is everywhere. Its inevitable that civilians will die as they have throughout history when war zones (which were more limited ) moved through civilian areas.

Agreed as a society we should have moved on but we haven't, humans are still violent and nasty and if your enemy is violent and nasty then you would be a fool to think you would be able to defeat them without breaking some rules.

Tom Hark Preston Park · Sep 18, 2024

These are a superb book. Guess they're going to have to bring out an updated version now

Wardy's twin · Sep 18, 2024

Shropshire Seagull said:
In physics, yes.

But in the humanitarian world this is called "an eye for an eye".
If this were applied, the whole world would be blind ....

The human approach is E+R=O
When an EVENT occurs a RESPONSE can be chosen (including nil) - the RESPONSE chosen will dictate the OUTCOME
Simple in micro events but macro events like terrorism it's easier said then done.

I have no answers.
What I do observe is that it appears (to me) that 99% of global conflict is either religion or political based.
If we could just irradiate the root-cause, maybe that would fix the problem(s)?

A sad and dangerous world we live in ....

Humans are a lot more complicated than physics they have emotions which are totally unpredictable and what we know about the human race is that its aggressive and greedy always wanting more and that's why its become the dominant species on the planet and that's why it will ultimately wipe it self out if not through war it will be global warming.

Once you have the drive for stuff and that includes just plain old survival you start to identify like minded people and you form a pack. That's how we evolved and that's became dominant against other animals and then dominant against other human species ( Neanderthals ) and then other humans with wealth, religion, political opinion, race or indeed just not being in the same 'pack' was enough to identify targets.

junior · Sep 18, 2024

Walkie-talkies exploding there now according to BBC News

Bozza · Sep 18, 2024

junior said:
Walkie-talkies exploding there now according to BBC News

....including some at the funerals of those who died yesterday.

Seagull58 · Sep 18, 2024

Wardy's twin said:
It was never the objective of the IRA to wipe out the protestants or the English and there in lies the major difference and that is pretty much true of the groups you mention above. In the case of the IRA it was clear that the conflict was going nowhere, support was waning (especially as economic conditions improved) and rational people (yes i did say that) decided that peace might be a better option .

Until its clear that demands for the destruction of Israel are stopped then the Netanyahu's position seems justified to the current majority of Israelis and with that comes the continued aggressiveness.

The IRA'S objective was to remove Northern Ireland from the UK and incorporate it back into the Irish State. They decided to turn away from violence and embrace a peaceful politic process, as a result of which Sin Fein participates in the governance of Northern Ireland.
It is not totally inconceivable that a peaceful political way forward would be embraced in the Middle East, such as a 2 State solution, and Hezbollah, Hamas etc. lay down their arms.

Seagull58 · Sep 18, 2024

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
Sorry, not following your point. I was saying that it doesn't matter whether we think that the collateral deaths associated with the pager bombs means that this act is not as bad as 9/11 or is just as bad (in a game of terror top trumps). I think it means 'not as bad' but I don't think that what I think will affect anything going forward, for the reasons explained.

And related to that, I don't think that the pager bombs has made it any more or less likely that Hamas or Hezbollah will make peace with Israel (that was not my point by the way, my point was about whether what we think about it will have any influence on whether Hamas or Hezbollah will make peace with Israel (and indeed, vice versa)).

You said "Perhaps the worst aspect of this, collateral damage aside, is that it will achieve nothing useful. The terrorists are hardly going to think "boy, those Israelis are damned smart - we had better leave them alone and seek a peace deal".
My point is that you can't be sure of that. There are many instances of terrorist/freedom fighter organisations giving up armed struggle for various reasons.

British Bulldog · Sep 18, 2024

Is it wrong to tell foreign nuisance callers their device is due to explode in 5 4 3 2 1 and then shout BANG? Just asking for a friend?

Seagull58 · Sep 18, 2024

Psychobilly freakout said:
I do think it is a cop out.

You do not care either, that is your opinion and your certainly allowed to hold it, but it speaks volumes to me.

I am done holding a conversation with you, because I can be persuaded with valid points and arguments.
You clearly have an allegiance to a death machine that kills just as indiscriminately as Hezbollah and Hamas.

Good luck with your life.

That is nonsense.

Wardy's twin · Sep 18, 2024

Seagull58 said:
The IRA'S objective was to remove Northern Ireland from the UK and incorporate it back into the Irish State. They decided to turn away from violence and embrace a peaceful politic process, as a result of which Sin Fein participates in the governance of Northern Ireland.
It is not totally inconceivable that a peaceful political way forward would be embraced in the Middle East, such as a 2 State solution, and Hezbollah, Hamas etc. lay down their arms.

Nothing is impossible but Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran's stated objective is much deeper and further away from compromise than what happened in NI so for that to happen other major changes would need to happen.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Sep 18, 2024

Seagull58 said:
You said "Perhaps the worst aspect of this, collateral damage aside, is that it will achieve nothing useful. The terrorists are hardly going to think "boy, those Israelis are damned smart - we had better leave them alone and seek a peace deal".
My point is that you can't be sure of that. There are many instances of terrorist/freedom fighter organisations giving up armed struggle for various reasons.

OK. I personally doubt that Hezbollah or Hamas will give up and make peace with Israel whether Israel does or does not blow up their pagers. My expectation is that they will seek revenge.

But I will be delighted if proven wrong.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Sep 18, 2024

Zeberdi said:
Fair enough but you have frequently argued that our opinions in the UK don’t matter when it comes to what is happening in the ME or indeed the US election so assumed it was more of the same.

Apologies if you think I have misinterpreted a point you made.

I think it still matters imo that we acknowledge that a State entity, a signatory of the Geneva convention should be held to at least as high standards if not higher than we expect of a non-State terrorist organisation when it comes to disregarding civilian casualties regardless of whether they are deliberately targeting them or not.

ps we on on the same wavelength most of the time it’s ok to disagree sometimes - don’t take it personally

No, I am happy to agree with all that :thumbsup:

DJ Chi · Sep 18, 2024

Seagull58 said:
The IRA'S objective was to remove Northern Ireland from the UK and incorporate it back into the Irish State. They decided to turn away from violence and embrace a peaceful politic process, as a result of which Sin Fein participates in the governance of Northern Ireland.
It is not totally inconceivable that a peaceful political way forward would be embraced in the Middle East, such as a 2 State solution, and Hezbollah, Hamas etc. lay down their arms.

There is no chance of this happening. The people of the Republic of Ireland (mostly) were not living in abject poverty whilst their neighbour helped itself for vast tracts of the resources, living mostly in luxury in homes that you could see from the other side of the fence.

Hamas/Hezbollah have the destruction of Israel written into their charters, it's their raison d'etre. On the other side, it's massively in Netanyahu's interest for this conflict to continue for as long and as violently as possible. He needs the illusion of an existential war, 1984 style, to remain in power. A wholesale change of leaders on both sides will be required before there is any prospect whatsoever of a two state solution.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Sep 18, 2024

beorhthelm said:
if Hezbollah attacks a barracks or police station in Israel, is that ok then and not terrorism, because its targetted?

maybe i'm the odd one, in my eyes, deliberatly maiming targets just isn't how you go about immobilising an adversary.

No, you are absolutely right. As I mentioned previously my expectation is Bibi and his gang will be having a good old laugh about all the injuries, and will then jog on to something else.

Both 'sides' are petty and vindictive (flinging bombs from Gaza into Israel to kill a few hundred civilians is petty and vindictive as well as pointless, as is mining pagers), and both have leaderships that have no intention of pursuing peace. That's the biggest problem (and is yet another thing that resonates with my comment about it not mattering about which bit of killing and maiming by which side is the more virtuous and the least atrocious).

nickbrighton · Sep 18, 2024

Israel surrendered the high ground many many years ago, allowing attacks on refugee camps whilst looking on. This latest act just shows them for what they have become- a terrorist state. Had this been Russia doing the same thing in Ukraine there would be outrage. Israel seem to have taken a leaf from Putins book- bomb Gaza back to the middle ages, with scant regard for civilian casualties, and now this, which had no way of being targeted. there was no way of knowing whether man, woman, child were near the pagers when they were triggered

There is a massive difference between rightfully defending themselves and committing acts of terror, Israel crossed over that line sometime ago

Harry Wilson's tackle · Sep 18, 2024

DJ Chi said:
There is no chance of this happening. The people of the Republic of Ireland (mostly) were not living in abject poverty whilst their neighbour helped itself for vast tracts of the resources, living mostly in luxury in homes that you could see from the other side of the fence.

Hamas/Hezbollah have the destruction of Israel written into their charters, it's their raison d'etre. On the other side, it's massively in Netanyahu's interest for this conflict to continue for as long and as violently as possible. He needs the illusion of an existential war, 1984 style, to remain in power. A wholesale change of leaders on both sides will be required before there is any prospect whatsoever of a two state solution.

Nailed it.

Sad though, isn't it.

Seagull58 · Sep 18, 2024

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
OK. I personally doubt that Hezbollah or Hamas will give up and make peace with Israel whether Israel does or does not blow up their pagers. My expectation is that they will seek revenge.

But I will be delighted if proven wrong.

In the immediate future I expect you are correct. In the long term Netanyahu will go and could be replaced with more moderate leadership, Iran's leadership could change, Syria's leadership could change, Hezbollah and Hamas could decide that the way they are attempting to achieve their objective is not sustainable and they must pursue another path. Some terrorists become political leaders and participate in government.

jordanseagull · Sep 18, 2024

nickbrighton said:
Israel surrendered the high ground many many years ago, allowing attacks on refugee camps whilst looking on. This latest act just shows them for what they have become- a terrorist state. Had this been Russia doing the same thing in Ukraine there would be outrage. Israel seem to have taken a leaf from Putins book- bomb Gaza back to the middle ages, with scant regard for civilian casualties, and now this, which had no way of being targeted. there was no way of knowing whether man, woman, child were near the pagers when they were triggered

There is a massive difference between rightfully defending themselves and committing acts of terror, Israel crossed over that line sometime ago

Have you just compared Ukraine to Hezbollah? Correct me if I’m wrong but your analogy doesn’t work without that not making sense.

Seagull58 · Sep 18, 2024

nickbrighton said:
Israel surrendered the high ground many many years ago, allowing attacks on refugee camps whilst looking on. This latest act just shows them for what they have become- a terrorist state. Had this been Russia doing the same thing in Ukraine there would be outrage. Israel seem to have taken a leaf from Putins book- bomb Gaza back to the middle ages, with scant regard for civilian casualties, and now this, which had no way of being targeted. there was no way of knowing whether man, woman, child were near the pagers when they were triggered

There is a massive difference between rightfully defending themselves and committing acts of terror, Israel crossed over that line sometime ago

Supposing it was Ukraine doing it in Russia and effectively immobilising Putin's chain of command and, in doing so, 2 children and a couple of dozen civilians were killed?

Harry Wilson's tackle · Sep 18, 2024

nickbrighton said:
Israel surrendered the high ground many many years ago, allowing attacks on refugee camps whilst looking on. This latest act just shows them for what they have become- a terrorist state. Had this been Russia doing the same thing in Ukraine there would be outrage. Israel seem to have taken a leaf from Putins book- bomb Gaza back to the middle ages, with scant regard for civilian casualties, and now this, which had no way of being targeted. there was no way of knowing whether man, woman, child were near the pagers when they were triggered

There is a massive difference between rightfully defending themselves and committing acts of terror, Israel crossed over that line sometime ago

I agree with all that.

But they are also rightfully defending themselves.

Unfortunately the tactic is cavalier smiting that often descends to indiscriminate maiming and killing of civilians.

The tricky bit for me is juggling how to not take sides while not blaming one side or another. Both sides crossed the line a long time ago.

I have tended to accept that Israel is defending itself (albeit rather brutally) and yet I can't ignore that Israel has effectively taken the whole of Palestine prisoner, and has allowed the west bank to turn into cowboy country, with only one side allowed to do any shooting.

Increasingly if we want to see an end to the slaughter both sides will need to be made to sit down and talk. And the leaders of both sides will need to have the authority to get their people to behave.

I cant see any of this happening any time soon, so expect more death, more atrocities and so on.

[News] Middle East conflict

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