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[Politics] Labour Party meltdown incoming.......



chip

chip

Well-known member
Jul 7, 2003
1,324
Glorious Goodwood
Weststander said:
I think means testing for several million more applicants is hard. For applicants the online form is and has to be incredibly extensive.

Then the government agency have to check all that data to several databases. Because of independent taxation, much of it isn’t held on a household basis.
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Yes, my household comment wasn't very well thought through. However, for individuals with a relatively low income from one or two sources shouldn't be a problem for HMRC. They seem to find the tax I haven't paid on savings interest each year despite my best efforts and adjust my tax code accordingly. I was just trying to imagine what a reasonable threshold would be. I also don't begrudge pensioners having a drink or going out once in a while.
 




B

Bodian

Well-known member
May 3, 2012
14,361
Cumbria
Zeberdi said:
Well as I said, it would need to be higher than the usual cut off for benefits and not disincentivise

- maybe there’s a need for there to be some form compulsory pension contribution scheme - people insure their houses and cars, why not insure yourself for the future?

Personally, I think National Insurance contributions should be compulsory for everyone - too many people leave NI payment gaps throughout their working life then get the benefit of pension credits - unfairly (imo) rewarding people that don’t save or ‘live life for today’.

Again, as I said, taking the one million millionaire pensioners off the list would be a start!

(thresholds should always be a sliding scale, not have a ‘cut off‘ (like more than £16,000 savings then you don’t qualify)
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Yes - good idea.

But (there's always a but) how does this work for those who are not earning much in the first place. They are the ones who decide not to pay into a pension because they need the money to heat & eat etc. It's all very tricky.
 


Zeberdi

Zeberdi

“Vorsprung durch Technik”
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Oct 20, 2022
6,979
Weststander said:
Agreeing on the 880k.

Disagreeing on the income bracket above thar who do not qualify for any means tested benefits.
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I’m still a bit confused - are you saying you don’t agree with my suggestion that millionaires should not get a State Pension?

Not sure where this ‘880k’ comes from or what it had to do with my post?

Clearly, I am missing all the discussion over the past week not having read the thread and don’t really want to get embroiled with it particularly - just felt there’s another way of looking at some of this stuff that hadn’t really been articulated afaics.

As you were - carry on without me - I’m not sure I can catch up 😎
 


Bry Nylon

Bry Nylon

Test your smoke alarm
Helpful Moderator
Jul 21, 2003
20,587
Playing snooker
A few weeks ago I shared on here the slightly caustic quip originating on a WhatsApp group comprised mostly of Cabinet members, congratulating Sue Gray on her first 2 months in power. (I was shown it; I’m not a member of it, obvs).

Whilst the gag itself was mildly funny, it was the tiny grain of truth contained within it that was really interesting and the chickens are well and truly coming home to roost now, with an increasing number of the Cabinet understandably furious about this self-inflicted shitstorm that they are having to both vote for and defend in the media.

Whilst seemingly none of them deny Sue Gray is undoubtedly a good pick from the point of view of being an exceptional administrator and having unparalleled knowledge of the workings of Whitehall, the main gripe is that she has absolutely no political antenna. This in and of itself wouldn’t be a problem - but the real frustration is that she controls (‘limits’ they would say) access to the PM - and trying to get time with him this side of Christmas to discuss the political dimension and potential fallout of how decisions like the Winter Fuel Allowance are likely to play out Is apparently nigh on impossible. And so here we are.

At least Blair - when he too decided to dispense with his cabinet and do ‘sofa politics’ - had the good sense to share the sofa with really shrewd political operators like Phillip Gould, Peter Mandleson, Anji Hunter and Alistair Campbell.

No one believes this is going to go away any time soon. But they seem to wish Sue would.
 


Weststander

Weststander

Well-known member
Aug 25, 2011
69,410
Withdean area
Zeberdi said:
I’m still a bit confused - are you saying you don’t agree with my suggestion that millionaires should not get a State Pension?

Not sure where this ‘880k’ comes from or what it had to do with my post?
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My view on nsc about thar has always been the same, they shouldn’t receive it. If that can be done without hurting people, as discussed in great depth.

Have you had a sizeable break from this thread and issue? For the last few days @Bozza and others here have been discussing the harm from this on OAP households in the income category above the pension credit thresholds.
 
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B

Bodian

Well-known member
May 3, 2012
14,361
Cumbria
Zeberdi said:
I’m still a bit confused - are you saying you don’t agree with my suggestion that millionaires should not get a State Pension?

Not sure where this ‘880k’ comes from or what it had to do with my post?

Clearly, I am missing all the discussion over the past week not having read the thread and don’t really want to get embroiled with it particularly - just felt there’s another way of looking at some of this stuff that hadn’t really been articulated afaics.

As you were - carry on without me - I’m not sure I can catch up 😎
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It's to do with the WFP, not the state pension. 880k not claiming the pension credits they're entitled to.
 


Weststander

Weststander

Well-known member
Aug 25, 2011
69,410
Withdean area
Bry Nylon said:
A few weeks ago I shared on here the slightly caustic quip originating on a WhatsApp group comprised mostly of Cabinet members, congratulating Sue Gray on her first 2 months in power. (I was shown it; I’m not a member of it, obvs).

Whilst the gag itself was mildly funny, it was the tiny grain of truth contained within it that was really interesting and the chickens are well and truly coming home to roost now, with an increasing number of the Cabinet understandably furious about this self-inflicted shitstorm that they are having to both vote for and defend in the media.

Whilst seemingly none of them deny Sue Gray is undoubtedly a good pick from the point of view of being an exceptional administrator and having unparalleled knowledge of the workings of Whitehall, the main gripe is that she has absolutely no political antenna. This in and of itself wouldn’t be a problem - but the real frustration is that she controls (‘limits’ they would say) access to the PM - and trying to get time with him this side of Christmas to discuss the political dimension and potential fallout of how decisions like the Winter Fuel Allowance are likely to play out Is apparently nigh on impossible. And so here we are.

At least Blair - when he too decided to dispense with his cabinet and do ‘sofa politics’ - had the good sense to share the sofa with really shrewd political operators like Phillip Gould, Peter Mandleson, Anji Hunter and Alistair Campbell.

No one believes this is going to go away any time soon. But they seem to wish Sue would.
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If I were KS/Reeves, I’ll deal with this asap.

I do think Reeves will have to, otherwise it’ll overshadow each autumn/winter politically for the term.

Wondering if it’ll be something spiteful against a target grouping, as a rabble rousing distraction.

But would prefer “We’ve listened to representations and we’re …. “.
 
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Weststander

Weststander

Well-known member
Aug 25, 2011
69,410
Withdean area
Bodian said:
Yes - good idea.

But (there's always a but) how does this work for those who are not earning much in the first place. They are the ones who decide not to pay into a pension because they need the money to heat & eat etc. It's all very tricky.
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But when employees opt out of auto enrolment, the employer doesn’t pay in either. It just needs to happen from day one.
 




Bry Nylon

Bry Nylon

Test your smoke alarm
Helpful Moderator
Jul 21, 2003
20,587
Playing snooker
Weststander said:
If I were KS/Reeves, I’ll deal with this asap.

I do think Reeves will have to, otherwise it’ll overshadow each autumn/winter politically for the term.

Wondering if it’ll be something spiteful against a target grouping, as a rabble rousing distraction.

But would prefer “We’ve listening to representations and we’re …. “.
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Agree. And what is even worse from a political dimension is doing this now ffs. I mean, what the f*** were they even thinking?!

If you’re going to do this, at least do it in April. You literally couldn’t pick a worse time politically to announce this. For the next 5 months the media will be wall to wall with stories of freezing pensioners with empty fridges. It will dominate everything.

I can’t imagine part of SKS plan for his first 100 days included featuring on a meme alongside Harold Shipman.

Clueless.
 


Chicken Run

Chicken Run

Member Since Jul 2003
NSC Patron
Jul 17, 2003
19,835
Valley of Hangleton
Bry Nylon said:
Agree. And what is even worse from a political dimension is doing this now ffs. I mean, what the f*** were they even thinking?!

If you’re going to do this, at least do it in April. You literally couldn’t pick a worse time politically to announce this. For the next 5 months the media will be wall to wall with stories of freezing pensioners with empty fridges. It will dominate everything.

I can’t imagine part of SKS plan for his first 100 days included featuring on a meme alongside Harold Shipman.

Clueless.
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I wonder what the ‘Tool Maker’ would say to his son….
 






jcdenton08

jcdenton08

Offended Liver Sausage
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Oct 17, 2008
14,664
Zeberdi said:
Tbh - I get bored with all these political threads just reverting back to partisan lines regardless of the issue.
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Not sure this is the case on this issue. This isn’t the same old predictable hostile right wing/left posters (we all know who they are) simply parroting a party line.

Many Labour voters (and erm, MP’s…) are just as pissed off about this. It’s deeply unpopular.
 


Bozza

Bozza

You can change this
Helpful Moderator
Jul 4, 2003
57,337
Back in Sussex
jcdenton08 said:
Not sure this is the case on this issue. This isn’t the same old predictable hostile right wing/left posters (we all know who they are) simply parroting a party line.

Many Labour voters (and erm, MP’s…) are just as pissed off about this. It’s deeply unpopular.
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Weststander

Weststander

Well-known member
Aug 25, 2011
69,410
Withdean area
Bry Nylon said:
Agree. And what is even worse from a political dimension is doing this now ffs. I mean, what the f*** were they even thinking?!

If you’re going to do this, at least do it in April. You literally couldn’t pick a worse time politically to announce this. For the next 5 months the media will be wall to wall with stories of freezing pensioners with empty fridges. It will dominate everything.

I can’t imagine part of SKS plan for his first 100 days included featuring on a meme alongside Harold Shipman.

Clueless.
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Imho simply a miscalculation/error, now making the mistake of doubling down.

Initially I thought it fair. Then I listened to affected callers on R5 and LBC, pensioners who carefully explained their financial position above pension credit. For example they literally do feel cold, but paying over the WFP to their energy provider each winter sees them through. @Bozza’s family story underlines this.
 




Weststander

Weststander

Well-known member
Aug 25, 2011
69,410
Withdean area
Zeberdi said:
I haven’t been following the thread at all since Wednesday when I posted my second post on this topic and only read the post of @Bozza‘s that I replied to just a short while ago.


Tbh - I‘m getting bored with all these UK political threads now, just reverting back to partisan lines regardless of the issue. No one thinking outside the box, no one seeing the nuances and just getting more and more fractious and personal - as @Guinness Boy once said, ‘you can’t win the internet’.

It’s revealing to see who’s in what side of the political divide though - I have found that personally very helpful and an eyeopener in some cases.
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That last bit, may not be correct, too binary. I recognise several posters critical of this policy, who for years made plain their dislike of the Tories and/or their Tory MP.
 


L

London Irish

Well-known member
Nov 25, 2003
22,778
Trapped inside the Project for the New American Ce
Labour slump to 29% in polls. Turns out starving kids with the two-child cap and freezing pensioners by withdrawing vital winter heating is leading voters to make the “tough decision” to make this one of the most unpopular Labour governments ever


 








Zeberdi

Zeberdi

“Vorsprung durch Technik”
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Oct 20, 2022
6,979
jcdenton08 said:
Would you agree this is a very unpopular policy?
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Of course it’s unpopular (FACT) but whether it is the ‘right’ thing to do as part of ‘fixing the economy’ or not is another issue. Personally if I were a government minister, I wouldn’t start with this! I’m waiting for single people to lose their council tax discount of 25% - that will mean another £400 per year for me personally on top of fuel rises of another £100 or so per year (it costs about as much to heat a 2 bed house for one person as it does for two) - single room supplements on holidays and most accommodation …. It’s not cheap being single :lol:
 


jcdenton08

jcdenton08

Offended Liver Sausage
NSC Patron
Oct 17, 2008
14,664
Zeberdi said:
Of course it’s unpopular (FACT) but whether it is the ‘right’ thing to do as part of ‘fixing the economy’ or not is another issue. I’m waiting for single people to lose their council tax discount of 25% - that will mean another £400 per year for me personally on top of fuel rises of another £100 or so per year (it costs about as much to heat a 2 bed house for one person as it does for two) - single room supplements on holidays and most accommodation …. It’s not cheap being single :lol:
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And did you vote for Labour or want them to run the government?
 


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