[Politics] Labour Party meltdown incoming.......

Uh_huh_him · Sep 10, 2024

LamieRobertson said:
I think you’d get support for this!

I reckon you and as WZ has said, don’t like the way this has been handled and as a good person along with others think it should be handled differently ….even if it ends up paying some who don’t ‘need it’, which i think is better than not it giving it to those who do

I get it.

It's just that we haven't lived in a world where that is the criteria for looking out for our most vulnerable for a very long time.

For some reason the idea of taking £300 away from a pensioner is abhorrent, whereas there have been years of slashing spending on many other vulnerable groups with a far bigger impact on their welfare.
Thes cuts have raised barely a whimper, just a resignation, that we just don't have the money for it anymore.

I find it difficult to understand why this measure is provoking the ire, that it is.

Uh_huh_him · Sep 10, 2024

LamieRobertson said:
So just exist ….righto………still i guess if you are a train driver not to worry

It used to be said that a country would be judged on how well it treats its young and old…..right now badly

Yeah it used to be that way... ( i note you didn't say vulnerable, which is normally the way that argument is phrased.......)
But that was a very long time ago...
And there weren't Winter Fuel payments back then.

The Clamp · Sep 10, 2024

cjd said:
For the people who are in caring position...and think from memory...you have been or are one of them, shame on them for their attitude towards the elderly....you know....those ones who may have brought you into the world, or fought for your freedom in a war ( as my father did ), or those who lived through such difficult times but still, worked and contributed to the 'system' and helped grow this country financially in the world order, that astonishingly, we are still, I think the 6th most economic power in the world.

I can suffer fools gladly all the day long. It's not their fault, just circumstances.

I cannot suffer so called 'intelligent ' people acting like fools. Bloody nauseating.

I simply think you are overestimating the impact this will have on the elderly.

Those who really need the help will get it.

Uh_huh_him · Sep 10, 2024

The Clamp said:
I simply think you are overestimating the impact this will have on the elderly.

Those who really need the help will get it.

Time to leave this thread I feel.
The rational view is not being debated., or acknowledged

The Clamp · Sep 10, 2024

Uh_huh_him said:
Time to leave this thread I feel.
The rational view is not being debated., or acknowledged

Quite.

Weststander · Sep 10, 2024

The Clamp said:
I simply think you are overestimating the impact this will have on the elderly.

Those who really need the help will get it.

They’re not. Big numbers in the income bracket above pension credit.

LamieRobertson · Sep 10, 2024

Uh_huh_him said:
I get it.

It's just that we haven't lived in a world where that is the criteria for looking out for our most vulnerable for a very long time.

For some reason the idea of taking £300 away from a pensioner is abhorrent, whereas there have been years of slashing spending on many other vulnerable groups with a far bigger impact on their welfare.
Thes cuts have raised barely a whimper, just a resignation, that we just don't have the money for it anymore.

I find it difficult to understand why this measure is provoking the ire, that it is.

Ok…yep i can see where you are coming from….and obviously are a champion of other well deserved causes which i salute you on (sincerely)…..but the fact that this issue is getting to so attention imo is because so many people see it as totally unfair …i havnt personally spoken to anyone (off of here) that is for cutting it...and i have spoken to many many (a lot my customers)…covering a wide demographic ….you’ve gone from universal to hardly anyone….surely surely they could have come up with (the brains in the civil service) with a more targeted approach ..even if some ended up getting it that didnt deserve it (who judges that…who are we to judge that) …as i understand it under the current rules if everyone that qualified for pension credit took it up the savings would be reduced by half …so this ‘saving’ is it really worth making to the detriment of those who want to live in retirement with a reasonable standard of living.

LamieRobertson · Sep 10, 2024

Uh_huh_him said:
Time to leave this thread I feel.
The rational view is not being debated., or acknowledged

LOL rational to who? Something that fits your own opinion …..i think u r better than that

Have a good evening

WATFORD zero · Sep 10, 2024

LamieRobertson said:
I think you’d get support for this!

I reckon you and as WZ has said, don’t like the way this has been handled and as a good person along with others think it should be handled differently ….even if it ends up paying some who don’t ‘need it’, which i think is better than not giving it to those who do

I would support it if it didn't target 10% of pensioners based entirely on annual income and consequently bring in 10% of the figure needed. Given that 25% of pensioners are currently millionaires, I personally believe it should move the other way a bit :wink:

cjd · Sep 10, 2024

The Clamp said:
I simply think you are overestimating the impact this will have on the elderly.

Those who really need the help will get it.

If ever a reply showed that you know so very little about the elderly, this was it.

Your generation and you in particular,have no ability or awareness of how many of the elderly population view not being able to "pay your way ". Most of them are a very proud generation. Most will be so very very cold this winter.....without a complaint.

I realise many of the lefties like yourself, take no notice of my posts, but have a read of one of Bozzas posts on here regarding his mum....and in particular about how she would receive help from Bozza or his sister.

It is no surprise to me that "Uh Huh him" liked your post. Two ignorant peas in a pod.

WATFORD zero · Sep 10, 2024

cjd said:
For the people who are in caring position...and think from memory...you have been or are one of them, shame on them for their attitude towards the elderly....you know....those ones who may have brought you into the world, or fought for your freedom in a war ( as my father did ), or those who lived through such difficult times but still, worked and contributed to the 'system' and helped grow this country financially in the world order, that astonishingly, we are still, I think the 6th most economic power in the world.

I can suffer fools gladly all the day long. It's not their fault, just circumstances.

I cannot suffer so called 'intelligent ' people acting like fools. Bloody nauseating.

I wondered how long before someone bought up 'the war' which nobody on NSC or any of these pensioners we are talking about were ever involved in :laugh:

Uh_huh_him · Sep 10, 2024

LamieRobertson said:
Ok…yep i can see where you are coming from….and obviously are a champion of other well deserved causes which i salute you on (sincerely)…..but the fact that this issue is getting to so attention imo is because so many people see it as totally unfair …i havnt personally spoken to anyone (off of here) that is for cutting it...and i have spoken to many many (a lot my customers)…covering a wide demographic ….you’ve gone from universal to hardly anyone….surely surely they could have come up with (the brains in the civil service) with a more targeted approach ..even if some ended up getting it that didnt deserve it (who judges that…who are we to judge that) …as i understand it under the current rules if everyone that qualified for pension credit took it up the savings would be reduced by half …so this ‘saving’ is it really worth making to the detriment of those who want to live in retirement with a reasonable standard of living.

From my perspective, it is far better that the government are making less savings by ensuring those that need pension credit get it, than all pensioners get £300.

I just don't get the unfair comments.
All cuts are unfair. Something that used to be given to people, have it taken away.

Child benefit was taken away from families with one partner on the higher tax level.
Sure many people didn't need it. Some did. Some where significantly disadvantaged by it.

It was a significantly bigger financial impact than this one.

WATFORD zero · Sep 10, 2024

Weststander said:
They’re not. Big numbers in the income bracket above pension credit.

Well if it includes the 10% who currently have an income of over 50K and the 25% who are millionaires, I can imagine it being quite large :wink:

(And of course I understand that large proportions of that wealth are tied up in property and pensions, and isn't easily accessible monthly income like the young families with kids paying mortgages and rents have)

BenGarfield · Sep 10, 2024

Baldseagull said:
MMT's description of an economy like the UK, is like me describing me performing a press up as pushing the planet Earth away.
It can look as though that is what is happening, relative to me, but it has no practical purpose to look at it that way, as me doing press ups doesnt move the planet, and if a comet is headed our way, I can't save the Earth by doing press ups, and you can't just keep printing money and expect it to have the same value.

The government, "prints" new money every day whenever it spends. The Exchequer and Audits Department Act of 1866 gives parliament the powers to instruct the Bank of England to create new money via the consolidated fund whenvever it wants to spend. There is no connection between this and tax receipts which are an entirely seperate process. MMT economists have never argued that the government can "print" as much as it likes without consequences and have put at the forefront as their only policy proposal the job guarantee which is specifically intended to control inflation alongside the use of taxation. If you dont beilieve me I suggest you read the "Self Financing State" published by UCL, If you think theres something incorrect with this I`m sure the authors would love to know.

Bozza · Sep 10, 2024

WATFORD zero said:
Well if it includes the 10% who currently have an income of over 50K and the 25% who are millionaires, I can imagine it being quite large

Do you have access to a different number than Age UK?

"We strongly oppose the means-testing of the Winter Fuel Payment because it means as many as 2 million pensioners who badly need the money to stay warm this winter will not receive it and will be in serious trouble as a result."

2 million out of 10 million is only 20% obviously. So 80% don't need it. Let's kick on.

2 million people. 2 million old people - poor, in many cases with health concerns of varying significance. Proud people at a stage of their lives where they really shouldn't be having to worry about whether they can afford to put the central heating on for 15 minutes when it's below freezing.

2 million people.

If the Tories did this you'd be breaking the world records for most use of the word "cabal" and sarcastic emojis in 24 hours.

Springal · Sep 10, 2024

When parents couldn’t afford to feed their kids, they were told by Reform MPs to budget better and eat beans or tinned potatoes

When the young can’t afford deposits for houses they were told to budget better and stop drinking Starbucks & costa, cancel Netflix

When people who have worked 40-50 years haven’t saved enough for retirement ??

I don’t understand it - make it means tested, give it to those that need it like all benefits

Weststander · Sep 10, 2024

WATFORD zero said:
Well if it includes the 10% who currently have an income of over 50K and the 25% who are millionaires, I can imagine it being quite large

(And of course I understand that large proportions of that wealth are tied up in property and pensions, and isn't easily accessible monthly income like the young families with kids paying mortgages and rents have)

I’m obviously talking about the old folk who just miss out.

We’ve both acknowledged there are a load of millionaires, that’s of no benefit to people who’ll struggle.

Let’s keep this debate focused and sensible :lolol:

.

Weststander · Sep 10, 2024

Springal said:
When parents couldn’t afford to feed their kids, they were told by Reform MPs to budget better and eat beans or tinned potatoes

When the young can’t afford deposits for houses they were told to budget better and stop drinking Starbucks & costa, cancel Netflix

When people who have worked 40-50 years haven’t saved enough for retirement ??

I don’t understand it - make it means tested, give it to those that need it like all benefits

Reeves deemed that’d be too expensive to implement and administer.

Chicken Run · Sep 10, 2024

Bozza said:
Do you have access to a different number than Age UK?

"We strongly oppose the means-testing of the Winter Fuel Payment because it means as many as 2 million pensioners who badly need the money to stay warm this winter will not receive it and will be in serious trouble as a result."

2 million out of 10 million is only 20% obviously. So 80% don't need it. Let's kick on.

2 million people. 2 million old people - poor, in many cases with health concerns of varying significance. Proud people at a stage of their lives where they really shouldn't be having to worry about whether they can afford to put the central heating on for 15 minutes when it's below freezing.

2 million people.

If the Tories did this you'd be breaking the world records for most use of the word "cabal" and sarcastic emojis in 24 hours.

He’d only be breaking his own world record, nothing to see here..

Mustafa II · Sep 10, 2024

Really pleased that they didn't bottle it with scrapping the winter fuel allowance for pensioners... it has restored some faith, at least.

I understand that this needs to be tough, but it needs to be fair.

I don't mind paying in my bit, but it needs to be reiterated, it needs to be FAIR.

This very much includes getting money from the wealthy (somehow) and especially the pensioners in £1m+ houses.

If they go after JUST the young and middle classes without making the wealthy older generations pay their way, I am NEVER voting for Labour again.

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[Politics] Labour Party meltdown incoming.......

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