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[Albion] If Brian Clough had stayed



Pinkie Brown

Pinkie Brown

Wir Sind das Volk
Sep 5, 2007
3,637
Neues Zeitalter DDR 🇩🇪
Harry Wilson's tackle said:
I hated the Clough era.

The 0-4 to Walton and Hersham
This:


The public abuse of our players.
The flounce.

And then all that old bollocks about his regrets.

As for Clough himself, league titles with two different clubs, the double European cup, obviously a genius...

But ask Peter Ward whether he was a good man.....
Click to expand...

I was at a dinner where Wardy and his wife were in attendance some years back. Wardy's first wife had been waiting to collect him off the team bus at one of the services up the M1 after an away game. For whatever reason, Clough being Clough, told the coach driver not to stop and continune to the next junction and let him out there. This entailed a lenghy trudge in winter back to the service area along the motorway bank. No mobiles in those days to call up and be rescued.

For all his motivational genius and achievements, he had a bullying streak in him if he took a dislike to you. The question is often asked; 'how would Clough fare in the modern game.' Not a chance. He was from another era and despite his bravado and self confidence at his peak, he wouldn't have handled the modern Premier League as it operates today. Especially the new concept of managers/head coaches having little say in recruitment.
 




Weststander

Weststander

Well-known member
Aug 25, 2011
69,185
Withdean area
Pinkie Brown said:
I was at a dinner where Wardy and his wife were in attendance some years back. Wardy's first wife had been waiting to collect him off the team bus at one of the services up the M1 after an away game. For whatever reason, Clough being Clough, told the coach driver not to stop and continune to the next junction and let him out there. This entailed a lenghy trudge in winter back to the service area along the motorway bank. No mobiles in those days to call up and be rescued.

For all his motivational genius and achievements, he had a bullying streak in him if he took a dislike to you. The question is often asked; 'how would Clough fare in the modern game.' Not a chance. He was from another era and despite his bravado and self confidence at his peak, he wouldn't have handled the modern Premier League as it operates today. Especially the new concept of managers/head coaches having little say in recruitment.
Click to expand...

There are similarities with Mourinho. Winners yet narcissists, bullies, who publicly shame players and staff.
 




Cowfold Seagull

Cowfold Seagull

Fan of the 17 bus
Apr 22, 2009
22,111
Cowfold
Eeyore said:
Indeed, but he also spent a lot of money bringing top players in. It's all relative. Nottingham Forest are not a team you would expect to break the transfer record. He was shown the door at Derby because he thought he could go around spending money like he was throwing confetti.

As I say, very good tactician. But could you imagine Tony bringing in his equal ?
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Ermmm l think that's a big fat NO!
 






Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
55,912
Faversham
Weststander said:
There are similarities with Mourinho. Winners yet narcissists, bullies, who publicly shame players and staff.
Click to expand...
And in the long run, they can f*** off.

Old skool is krunk. Fact.
 




L

Lenny Rider

Well-known member
Sep 15, 2010
5,991
I think we were never more than a PR stunt for Clough, who had his pride hurt after Derby Chairman Sam Longson won their ‘Mexican Standoff’, effectively a bit of ‘holiday money’ until Leeds United came calling.

Most of the stories I’ve heard from the people around at that time, Sir Norman, John Templeman, John Vinicombe and dear old Steve Piper, didn’t really endear him, as was Wardie’s recollection of his time at Forest.

Both he and Taylor were barrack room bullies, it obviously worked back then but HR would have a veritable bunfight in the modern world.
 




B

Brovion

In my defence, I was left unsupervised.
NSC Patron
Jul 6, 2003
19,856
Cowfold Seagull said:
IF! IF! IF! . . . The reality is that he didn't stay. I prefer to deal in reality, not made up scenarios.
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Exactly. I'm pleased with the way things went. I was ecstatic when he joined us, I couldn't believe it. Brian Clough! It showed the ambition Bamber had for the club, he wanted us to stop being a run-of-the-mill 3rd division club and to aim for the stars. (This type of ambition has ruined many a club since and may have contributed to our downfall, but we'll let that pass). It was a huge turning point, you had the era 'BC' (Before Clough), when all we'd was four (I think) seasons in the second tier, and the the era afterwards with Mullery, Division One Cup Final, etc.

However he WAS a disaster for us, and I can't believe people can say we'd have won the League if he'd stayed, there was no evidence for that, quite the opposite. But he did leave us Peter Taylor, who did so much to build the team for Mullery.

So we'll never know, but things worked out ok so not only do I not know - I don't care.
 


L

Lenny Rider

Well-known member
Sep 15, 2010
5,991
Harry Wilson's tackle said:
I hated the Clough era.

The 0-4 to Walton and Hersham
This:


The public abuse of our players.
The flounce.

And then all that old bollocks about his regrets.

As for Clough himself, league titles with two different clubs, the double European cup, obviously a genius...

But ask Peter Ward whether he was a good man.....
Click to expand...

His treatment of Justin Fashanu, effectively publicly outing him in a football dressing room, then banning him from the club, would be deemed a hate crime today.
 


M

Mo Gosfield

Well-known member
Aug 11, 2010
6,361
Cowfold Seagull said:
IF! IF! IF! . . . The reality is that he didn't stay. I prefer to deal in reality, not made up scenarios.
Click to expand...
Well here is another scenario........
Had Clough and Taylor stayed for another 4-5 years, there would have been no catalyst to ignite the rivalry with Palace .i.e Mullery and Venables. The relationship would have remained as it was before. Millwall would have stayed Palace's main rivals and not turned their attentions to West Ham. The A23 ' derby ' would have stayed off the radar and we would have cast envious glances at Pompey/Saints whilst remaining largely neutral. Sure, there was always a feeling between the two clubs, emphasised by the 26,000 who turned up at the Goldstone for opening day 74/75 but at that point it was never going to grow the way it did.
Clough and Taylor were a partnership, a double act. Strengths and weaknesses dovetailing. One attracted to hard working 100% players, the other attracted to mavericks/matchwinners. They got the blend right in their teams. It is churlish to suggest that, had they both stayed, we wouldn't have progressed. We would. They would have re-written our history.
When Mike Bamber made his move, Clough was already a media darling, a high profile personality. He was jetting across the Atlantic to meet Ali. He was on Parkinson. He was being touted as an England mgr of the future. He was never out the news. When he joined the Albion it was agreed there would be no restriction on their media activities. They signed a five year contract.
They knew they had inherited a poor squad and set about improving it. They went through the pain of Bristol Rovers and Walton. Always looking for a top keeper, they signed Peter Grummitt. In came the likes of Andy Rollings, Fred Binney, Steve Govier and Ian Mellor ( record £40k fee ) 10-12 players were shipped out. The process had started.
Then Leeds came along and everything changed.
 




Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
55,912
Faversham
Lenny Rider said:
His treatment of Justin Fashanu, effectively publicly outing him in a football dressing room, then banning him from the club, would be deemed a hate crime today.
Click to expand...
I was living abroad at the time and missed all that. Wow. No sure what it would be called (extreme stupidity?), but it would end Clough's career in football overnight, were it today.

One would like to think that, were it today, Clough would have long since shed his ignorance. Many of us have educated ourselves during our lives about many different things.

That is quite vindictive though. Nasty. :down:
 


R

ROSM

Well-known member
Dec 26, 2005
6,744
Just far enough away from LDC
Harry Wilson's tackle said:
I was living abroad at the time and missed all that. Wow. No sure what it would be called (extreme stupidity?), but it would end Clough's career in football overnight, were it today.

One would like to think that, were it today, Clough would have long since shed his ignorance. Many of us have educated ourselves during our lives about many different things.

That is quite vindictive though. Nasty. :down:
Click to expand...
We are a product of what we are, our surroundings and our upbringing.

The things that would have made him a success (single mindedness, total belief he was right, work ethic and doing things his way) would also have been his weakness (arrogance, stubbornness, taking any work offered etc).

He was a bully at a time bullies were winners whether in the army, politics or sport. For example, Mullers was no shy wallflower, damaging a goalkeepers finger at half time of a reserve game when rollocking him over a conceded goal.

Some of his prejudices may well have changed/evolved over time. But even in the 90s people born in the 1930s/40s would have been homophonic. I remember in late 80s working with a young gay bloke who was ostracised by 40 and 50 year olds due to AIDS fears. Imagine that scenario in a dressing room situation.

I'm not defending clough's views or the actions he took by the way.
 


Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
55,912
Faversham
ROSM said:
We are a product of what we are, our surroundings and our upbringing.

The things that would have made him a success (single mindedness, total belief he was right, work ethic and doing things his way) would also have been his weakness (arrogance, stubbornness, taking any work offered etc).

He was a bully at a time bullies were winners whether in the army, politics or sport. For example, Mullers was no shy wallflower, damaging a goalkeepers finger at half time of a reserve game when rollocking him over a conceded goal.

Some of his prejudices may well have changed/evolved over time. But even in the 90s people born in the 1930s/40s would have been homophonic. I remember in late 80s working with a young gay bloke who was ostracised by 40 and 50 year olds due to AIDS fears. Imagine that scenario in a dressing room situation.

I'm not defending clough's views or the actions he took by the way.
Click to expand...
Indeed. Thankfully times do change.

And you raise an interesting point - how to get the best out of people, today, who may have thrived in the past because circumstances allowed (and even encouraged) their excesses.

I have long held the view that human (genetic) diversity means we keep the potential for all sorts of extreme behviours in the gene pool, with all different sorts having their day at certain times in history.

For example, I suspect we have always had a pool of 'patriotic' yet belligerent male imperative, with those expressing it traditionally serving as footsoldiers in the interminable warfare (small or large scale) that we humans seem to find so moreish. In times of peace they get bored and may channel their testosterone in ways society cannot tolerate, until they mellow with age. What to do with this today when warfare is no longer a great user of manpower? Tricky.

Personally I am glad to see the back of bully culture. I always hated it. And it does seem to have largely dissipated (when chumps like the bloke at Crawley kick off it becomes national news). Perhaps it isn't so hard, after all, for people (mostly males) to keep a lid on their more hairy-arsed instincts.

Back to Clough, a great man of his time, and I'm not interested in putting him on virtual trial using the mores of today. Nor would I defend his excesses. It was what it was....and we move on into shinier new days.
 




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