[Misc] Electric Cars

Change at Barnham · Aug 28, 2024

Audax said:
Worth doing your own research to confirm the stuff that comes from these Youtubers. Not watched this vid as yet (I will though!), but a while back my dad sent me one talking down EVs (also from a supposed previously pro-EV creator) and after watching it I did some of my own research. The vid had clearly been excessively skewed in the anti-EV direction. Whether that was for "the clicks" or other reasons, not sure, but the angle the guy was pushing wasn't backed by real world numbers. He'd "become aware" of a potential design fault (that could lead to battery fires) in a couple of models and then massively over-egged the extent of the issue in the real world (reality being it's more likely for an ICE to catch fire than either of the EV models he looked at).

The massive depreciation across the board seems to be the biggest point.
About two thirds of EV's are be bought as company cars due to the tax breaks.
Dealerships apparently have targets of 22% for new EV sales in 2024 and that becomes 80% by 2030.
The motor trade need to sell new EV's and therefore aren't interested in having secondhand EV's on their forecourts and bid very low for them.
Insurance has also increased for EV's because parts are more expensive and alternative hire cars need to be provided for longer and EV's are being written off earlier than petrol cars.

Nobby Cybergoat · Aug 28, 2024

It's been said of course, but I casually looked at some second hand EV's online yesterday and I was staggered at how much the price has come down.

I've got a 15 year old, 150k ICE car, which has done a great job for me, but when that gives up the ghost, deffo going to be looking at an EV

Sid and the Sharknados · Aug 28, 2024

Flounce said:
Anyone on here with an EV think “yeah this is just as much fun to drive as an ICE car”?

Not, it does great mileage, it‘s the way forward, I am saving the planet just “yep, I prefer driving this to a car with an engine“

Just to engage slightly more seriously with the question - my dad recently switched from a petrol car to an electric for his daily runaround (dog walks, shopping etc.) after having it as a courtesy car and pretty much immediately falling in love with it (as he tells me). This from being pathologically and quite boringly anti-electric beforehand.

One of my sisters has a couple with her partner as well and they both think they're fantastic.

nicko31 · Aug 28, 2024

dsr-burnley said:
Electric cars in 20 years won't be on the same technology as they are now. I suspect they will have found some way of recharging them that's as fast, or close to it, as it is to fill up with petrol.

Electric cars are completely different from a decade ago and they will be different again in another decade. I have 300m range and rarely ever need more and will be in the majority

I still think the biggest challenge is charging, I'm fortunate I have off street parking with a charger and I'm paying 7p / kwh to charge my car and power my house for that matter.

However, this isn't possible for many. I was in the London Borough of Wandsworth recently, here are loads of 3kw EV chargers on lamp posts. Makes a lot of sense as you can charge overnight.

Machiavelli · Aug 28, 2024

Herr Tubthumper said:
A Mulberry man-bag like everyone else?

Wouldn't happen in Burnley

Flounce · Aug 28, 2024

Audax said:
Worth doing your own research to confirm the stuff that comes from these Youtubers. Not watched this vid as yet (I will though!), but a while back my dad sent me one talking down EVs (also from a supposed previously pro-EV creator) and after watching it I did some of my own research. The vid had clearly been excessively skewed in the anti-EV direction. Whether that was for "the clicks" or other reasons, not sure, but the angle the guy was pushing wasn't backed by real world numbers. He'd "become aware" of a potential design fault (that could lead to battery fires) in a couple of models and then massively over-egged the extent of the issue in the real world (reality being it's more likely for an ICE to catch fire than either of the EV models he looked at).

I reckon Harry is the best car youtuber out there. No dramatics or hyperbole just fact based logical views on pretty well every car video he makes. Apart from also being a farmer I believe that he founded Evo magazine and has some amazing classic cars. If you love cars his videos are 100% worth watching.

Flounce · Aug 28, 2024

Sid and the Sharknados said:
I can't help but feel it was a waste of effort to ask the question then.

Nope because quite a few on here seem to be sold on EVs :shrug:

I am certainly not anti EV but having been in them and driven them they‘re definitely not for me. A Hybrid one day…maybe

nicko31 · Aug 28, 2024

Flounce said:
I reckon Harry is the best car youtuber out there. No dramatics just fact based logical views on pretty well every car video he makes. Apart from also being a farmer I believe that he founded Evo magazine and has some amazing classic cars. If you love cars his videos are 100% worth watching.

Harry does some great vids on the challenges of farming in the UK, very informative.

Audax · Aug 28, 2024

Change at Barnham said:
The massive depreciation across the board seems to be the biggest point.
About two thirds of EV's are be bought as company cars due to the tax breaks.
Dealerships apparently have targets of 22% for new EV sales in 2024 and that becomes 80% by 2030.
The motor trade need to sell new EV's and therefore aren't interested in having secondhand EV's on their forecourts and bid very low for them.
Insurance has also increased for EV's because parts are more expensive and alternative hire cars need to be provided for longer and EV's are being written off earlier than petrol cars.

Flounce said:
I reckon Harry is the best car youtuber out there. No dramatics or hyperbole just fact based logical views on pretty well every car video he makes. Apart from also being a farmer I believe that he founded Evo magazine and has some amazing classic cars. If you love cars his videos are 100% worth watching.

Right, so I've watched the vid. Good vid in general, and I agree with him on many of the points he's made, within boundaries. There's a few things I don't like about the vid, though, because it does skew the big picture when it comes to EVs. So, my thoughts:

1. He's putting too much stock on what Toyota are saying re: EV and fails to mention the elephant in the Toyota room. Toyota bet big on hydrogen (hence the existence of the Mirai), and they've been losing. They're now late to the EV party (they've had the flagship Prius hybrids for a long time because California forced them, but their first pure EV has only just arrived this year) and IMO their forecast on EVs needs to be taken with a heavy pinch of salt. Hydrogen remains (and will for some time) well behind electric: a) we still don't have the tech to be able to mass-produce "green" hydrogen, so hydrogen cars simply don't have the green credentials currently, and b) infrastructure for refilling hydrogen is also way behind (even if it's with dirty hydrogen), so refilling a hydrogen car needs even more advance planning than an EV.

2. He barely talks at all about the end of the EV market that is relevant to the majority, and instead bases his arguments around the end of the market that we'll never see. Porsche Taycan's, Lotus Eletre, etc ... they're niche market, and while he has a point about the impact of political decisions and the existence of those cars on the current market ... to be honest, I don't give two shits about massive depreciation in value on £100k+ cars.

3. He touches on it only briefly, but it looks to me like his primary reason for going diesel is actually because of his personal use cases not being supported by EV yet (ie towing a caravan and the like).

4. Some of what he talks about re: battery degradation is based on outdated tech / experience. He highlights an early Leaf with massive degradation. Yup, early Leaf's did that. Current generation Leaf's don't. And yup, high performance sports cars configured to deliver high performance are killing their batteries. Surprise? Errr, nope... Where I absolutely, 100% agree with him, is on making battery degradation easily visible. Governments around the world should mandate it. Alongside mandatory education being provided by manufacturers around how to get the best out of the battery (covering minimising degradation, expected lifespans under given conditions [ie always fast charge vs trickle charge vs how/when car is driven, battery range under seasonal conditions] etc). He's also not discussed (except as a negative!) that battery R&D advances due to hit the roads in the next few years are going to massively improve the batteries (again).

5. Value depreciation ... yup, it's a problem right now. But where I differ from him is that I see it as a good thing in the short term. We need affordable second hand EVs on the market to help encourage take up from those who cannot afford new. I personally think the depreciation "problem" is short term and will naturally resolve itself over time as society makes the shift to EV.

6. My biggest bugbear / gripe with EV isn't anything that he's mentioned in the video (other than some very, very brief moments): it's education of wider society when it comes to EVs. I see a lot of negativity about EVs on the basis of people just not understanding them. They've heard bad things (from 10 years ago...). They think they can't afford them. They're worried about range / ability to recharge "on the go" etc. We're currently looking to get people to shift to EV in a world where the fossil fuel industry is being allowed to drive the conversation without challenge. That needs to change. The world needs to have an honest conversation about the pros and cons of EV and make sure that the majority of individuals out there are able to make their personal decisions on when to go EV from an informed basis (not one driven by outdated information and/or deliberately seeded mis/dis-information campaigns).

Machiavelli · Aug 28, 2024

Audax said:
Right, so I've watched the vid. Good vid in general, and I agree with him on many of the points he's made, within boundaries. There's a few things I don't like about the vid, though, because it does skew the big picture when it comes to EVs. So, my thoughts:

1. He's putting too much stock on what Toyota are saying re: EV and fails to mention the elephant in the Toyota room. Toyota bet big on hydrogen (hence the existence of the Mirai), and they've been losing. They're now late to the EV party (they've had the flagship Prius hybrids for a long time because California forced them, but their first pure EV has only just arrived this year) and IMO their forecast on EVs needs to be taken with a heavy pinch of salt. Hydrogen remains (and will for some time) well behind electric: a) we still don't have the tech to be able to mass-produce "green" hydrogen, so hydrogen cars simply don't have the green credentials currently, and b) infrastructure for refilling hydrogen is also way behind (even if it's with dirty hydrogen), so refilling a hydrogen car needs even more advance planning than an EV.

2. He barely talks at all about the end of the EV market that is relevant to the majority, and instead bases his arguments around the end of the market that we'll never see. Porsche Taycan's, Lotus Eletre, etc ... they're niche market, and while he has a point about the impact of political decisions and the existence of those cars on the current market ... to be honest, I don't give two shits about massive depreciation in value on £100k+ cars.

3. He touches on it only briefly, but it looks to me like his primary reason for going diesel is actually because of his personal use cases not being supported by EV yet (ie towing a caravan and the like).

4. Some of what he talks about re: battery degradation is based on outdated tech / experience. He highlights an early Leaf with massive degradation. Yup, early Leaf's did that. Current generation Leaf's don't. And yup, high performance sports cars configured to deliver high performance are killing their batteries. Surprise? Errr, nope... Where I absolutely, 100% agree with him, is on making battery degradation easily visible. Governments around the world should mandate it. Alongside mandatory education being provided by manufacturers around how to get the best out of the battery (covering minimising degradation, expected lifespans under given conditions [ie always fast charge vs trickle charge vs how/when car is driven, battery range under seasonal conditions] etc). He's also not discussed (except as a negative!) that battery R&D advances due to hit the roads in the next few years are going to massively improve the batteries (again).

5. Value depreciation ... yup, it's a problem right now. But where I differ from him is that I see it as a good thing in the short term. We need affordable second hand EVs on the market to help encourage take up from those who cannot afford new. I personally think the depreciation "problem" is short term and will naturally resolve itself over time as society makes the shift to EV.

6. My biggest bugbear / gripe with EV isn't anything that he's mentioned in the video (other than some very, very brief moments): it's education of wider society when it comes to EVs. I see a lot of negativity about EVs on the basis of people just not understanding them. They've heard bad things (from 10 years ago...). They think they can't afford them. They're worried about range / ability to recharge "on the go" etc. We're currently looking to get people to shift to EV in a world where the fossil fuel industry is being allowed to drive the conversation without challenge. That needs to change. The world needs to have an honest conversation about the pros and cons of EV and make sure that the majority of individuals out there are able to make their personal decisions on when to go EV from an informed basis (not one driven by outdated information and/or deliberately seeded mis/dis-information campaigns).

RE point 6, you should engage with a wider audience than NSC but I for one that you do engage with NSC :thumbsup:

Bob! · Aug 28, 2024

Change at Barnham said:
The massive depreciation across the board seems to be the biggest point.
About two thirds of EV's are be bought as company cars due to the tax breaks.
Dealerships apparently have targets of 22% for new EV sales in 2024 and that becomes 80% by 2030.
The motor trade need to sell new EV's and therefore aren't interested in having secondhand EV's on their forecourts and bid very low for them.
Insurance has also increased for EV's because parts are more expensive and alternative hire cars need to be provided for longer and EV's are being written off earlier than petrol cars.

Second hand prices coming down are good in my opinion.

Nobby Cybergoat said:
It's been said of course, but I casually looked at some second hand EV's online yesterday and I was staggered at how much the price has come down.

I've got a 15 year old, 150k ICE car, which has done a great job for me, but when that gives up the ghost, deffo going to be looking at an EV

Same position, I have a 14 year old, 136k ICE car. Hoping it holds out for a couple more years as ideally I'd want a car that can comfortably make the 190 miles round trip to The Amex without having to stop to re-charge.
Second hand prices of current 300 mile ( perfect conditions) are currently out of my budget.

Bozza · Aug 28, 2024

Bob! said:
Second hand prices coming down are good in my opinion.

Same position, I have a 14 year old, 136k ICE car. Hoping it holds out for a couple more years as ideally I'd want a car that can comfortably make the 190 miles round trip to The Amex without having to stop to re-charge.
Second hand prices of current 300 mile ( perfect conditions) are currently out of my budget.

Similar.

Our 2012 Honda Civic has just gone through 100,000 miles. It's always been reliable, but I expect something major to go on it sometime soon, and a repair to be uneconomical. The last MOT cost over £500 because of a siezed brake caliper, and I don't want to be shelling out that kind of money again if I can help it.

From your research what can you get for, say, £10k today?

Rowdey · Aug 28, 2024

Nobby Cybergoat said:
It's been said of course, but I casually looked at some second hand EV's online yesterday and I was staggered at how much the price has come down.

I've got a 15 year old, 150k ICE car, which has done a great job for me, but when that gives up the ghost, deffo going to be looking at an EV

With introduction of ULEZ, my last Transit (LPG, loved it, very Eco etc) had to go and i wanted to buy a Elec Van - There were only 2 on the market at £54k and £63K plus vat, so bought a Euro 6 Diesel Transit as an interim.
The new E-Transit got introduced later at £55k which was still a bit out of range, but now seeing 1-2 year old main dealer pre-owned at £25-30K with sub 5k miles on.. thats a HUGE depreciation..! And my ICE transit has held same price 4 years later.

schmunk · Aug 28, 2024

Bozza said:
From your research what can you get for, say, £10k today?

Perfect.

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nicko31 · Aug 28, 2024

Bozza said:
Similar.

Our 2012 Honda Civic has just gone through 100,000 miles. It's always been reliable, but I expect something major to go on it sometime soon, and a repair to be uneconomical. The last MOT cost over £500 because of a siezed brake caliper, and I don't want to be shelling out that kind of money again if I can help it.

From your research what can you get for, say, £10k today?

A 3 year old VW ID3 with 200m+ range for 12k...

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Find your next car with Auto Trader UK, the official #1 site to buy and sell new and used cars. Over 400,000 cars online. Simple, easy, quick!

www.autotrader.co.uk

Bozza · Aug 28, 2024

nicko31 said:
A 3 year old VW ID3 with 200m+ range for 12k...

Auto Trader UK - New and Used Cars For Sale

Find your next car with Auto Trader UK, the official #1 site to buy and sell new and used cars. Over 400,000 cars online. Simple, easy, quick!

www.autotrader.co.uk

That looks decent.

Is that essentially an electric Golf?

Greg Bobkin · Aug 28, 2024

Flounce said:
I refuse to believe that an electric car gives anywhere close to the experience of driving a lightweight sportscar

Fair enough. I mean, I've driven ones that do, but everyone's entitled to their opinion :thumbsup:

Change at Barnham · Aug 28, 2024

Bob! said:
Second hand prices coming down are good in my opinion.

Agreed, but only if you've been canny enough to buy at a low price and you're not trying to sell a vehicle.
If you've bought a new one on finance you might not feel the same way.
(I've never bought a new car)

Greg Bobkin · Aug 28, 2024

dsr-burnley said:
Not going to happen IMO. People like their own cars too much. The joys of taking your children on a day out and carrying all your gear with you every time you get out of the car, are overrated.

If you haven't got your own car, where do you keep the tin of sweets, the sunglasses, the binoculars, the overcoat in case it rains, the umbrella ditto, the book for traffic jams, the map because one of the passengers likes to watch where we are going? People like their own cars and are willing to pay for them.

That's not the main reason autonomous vehicles (probably) won't happen on a large scale, at least. It's the legislation, liability and insurance issues around them.

Greg Bobkin · Aug 28, 2024

Change at Barnham said:
The massive depreciation across the board seems to be the biggest point.
About two thirds of EV's are be bought as company cars due to the tax breaks.
Dealerships apparently have targets of 22% for new EV sales in 2024 and that becomes 80% by 2030.
The motor trade need to sell new EV's and therefore aren't interested in having secondhand EV's on their forecourts and bid very low for them.
Insurance has also increased for EV's because parts are more expensive and alternative hire cars need to be provided for longer and EV's are being written off earlier than petrol cars.

But the used EV market is getting stronger all the time, so retailers are very much interested in getting hold of them.

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