"War on Terrorism" - is it hopeless ?

[Easy 10]

Its depressing, and I'm depressed tonight, after watching all the news reports with those hideous images coming in from Madrid today. And it seems to me this "War on Terrorism" is an impossible war to win. Every time there is an atrocity of this nature, we hear the same things being trotted out by the Governments..."Cowardly attacks...perpetrators will be brought to justice...we will not be intimidated by terrorists...we will never give in to terrorism..." etc etc. All brave words I'm sure, but we've heard it all before. Whether the attack on Madrid was committed by Al-Qaeda or ETA makes little difference in the great scheme of things. Even if they do manage to capture the terrorists responsible, whether they were Arab or Basque, there will still be a bottomless pit of scum who will continue to kill indescriminately in the name of their Cause. They will continue to recruit, and they will continue to kill.

If the Madrid bombings turn out to have been by Al-Qaeda, then that is even more worrying from our point of view. ETA is a "localised" terrorist group within Spain, whereas Al-Qaeda is a wordlwide terrorist organisation who could target anywhere. If it was Al-Qaeda, then what happened this morning in Madrid could just have easily happened in London...and still could. No matter how much Intelligence we have on these organisations, no matter how vigilant we think we are, they are holding all the cards, and we are at the mercy of an attack any time, any where. How the hell can you combat that ?

It scares me shitless the thought that it is probably just a matter of time before this country is targetted for something big.

 

[John Dorian]

i agree with you easy and i don't think that terrorism will ever cease unless we get the man at the centre of it all... mr. bin laden.

I've been to the trade towers site and that was awful, all because of that guy.coward.twat.

 

[TSB]

i agree and it scares me and saddens me
world wars 1 & 2 were very VERY bad events,not least because it meant that all countries involved had to develop newer and more devastating weapons to kill massive amounts of people
if anyone watched the second series of 24,there was a group of terrorists who had captured a nuclear missile and were going to blow up half of california with it,sadly that could happen in real life

 

[Beach Hut]

I would not be surprised if this was ETA - as pointed out in previous thread several ETA attempts were caught but if you are determined and single minded you will probably get the right answer.

What absolute scares me is the single-mindedness of individuals who are trained / possibly programmed to suicide bomb and kill themselves at the same time.

It is a strange parallel but that one dimesional belief to die for a cause is perversly horrific but also admirable however the difference is to what extreme you take the cause to.

The facts are very different though - I have zero confidence in the war on terrorism, these people are bloody well organised and totally committed to their cause. The 9/11 atrocities would have required enormous planning and from a terrorist point of view was an amazing result.

The reality is frightening - I travel to London daily and sadly I now expect a barbaric act of terrorism is not very far away.

 

[Easy 10]

i agree with you easy and i don't think that terrorism will ever cease unless we get the man at the centre of it all... mr. bin laden.

Even if Bin Laden were captured, would that be an end to terrorism ? He's just the head honcho of Al-Qaeda, but there are plenty of other dangerous terrorist organisations worldwide. Terrorism will always exists. Its like a many-headed Hydra - cut off one head, and another one grows in its place. Its a perpetual war which cannot be won. All we can rely on is the Intelligence agencies successfully intercepting and foiling future atrocities, but they're never going to manage to stop all of them.

Periodically, there's going to be 9/11's, Bali bombings, Istanbul bombings, Madrid bombings...coming soon to a city near YOU.
What a f***ing world we live in.

 

[Easy 10]

What absolute scares me is the single-mindedness of individuals who are trained / possibly programmed to suicide bomb and kill themselves at the same time.

It is a strange parallel but that one dimesional belief to die for a cause is perversly horrific but also admirable however the difference is to what extreme you take the cause to.

I agree completely B H.
The knee-jerk political soundbite from any given minister is to brand it a "cowardly attack". Whilst not trying to glorify it, I'd say a suicide bomber is a long way from being a "coward". Sitting on a bus wearing a semtex waistcoat and flicking the switch, or flying a plane into a building, is a monstrous act of unspeakable evil...but it shows a terrifying single-mindedness and grim determination to sacrifice your own life for a cause you believe in.

Thats not cowardly. Thats psychotic.

 

[John Dorian]

Yes. I agree. although there has surely got to be ways to stop these sorts of attacks surely ? better security ?

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

.., there will still be a bottomless pit of scum who will continue to kill indescriminately in the name of their Cause. They will continue to recruit, and they will continue to kill.

Interesting statement. Allow me to paraphrase it from a third world point of view - the 'scum' being western governments and global corporations, the 'cause' being world dominance, 'new'-imperialism and global trade, the recruiters being the CIA.

and now lets have some history...

The year is 1962, Sukarno is the leader of the young independent Indonesia. He rejects IMF loans and calls to maintain subsidies on home-grown rice , as his country is doing very well thank you very much. The Americans don't like this, the CIA recruit a band of terrorists who commit assassinations, destablise the country and promote a coup bringing General Suharto to power. Sukarno sympathisers are rounded up and killed. 10,000 are murdered. Thats, what, 4 twin towers, promoted by the CIA. The new global corporations split up Indonesia's oil, minerals, timber resources and the World Bank designs their economy. Suicide rates amongst farmers struggling to get by without their subsidies shoot up. One of the largest genocides in history proceeds in East Timor, armed by British and Australian arms sales.

Next - 1975 - The Americans 'practice' the use of cluster bombs in Laos, a neighbour of Vietnam, with whom they were never officially at War. Since then 20,000 people have been killed or maimed by the left-overs.

1979. Afghanistan. After the overthrow of the king, the new government is a huge success. 90% literacy levels, better welfare system than any other central asian country, 40% of university graduates are women, a model country in every way. Oh, but they are friends with russia and are managing their own oil reserves, thank you very much. Thats not good enough, so the , in the form of the CIA, arms and funds the Mujahadeen, training them in US terrorist camps (thats a year BEFORE the Russians invade, guys), and overthrows the government, leading to the Taliban taking charge. Good work eh.

1991. Use of weapons of mass destruction in first gulf war - depleted-uranium bombs. Cancer diagnoses up 500% because of radioactivity in area. UK government still denies any link, even though it is affecting the army, even though the scientist in charge of the team investigating has radioactive levels hugely above normal.

1998. Sudan. Clinton orders the bombing of a medicine factory. A factory well-known as the only supply if chloroquine, a drug that treats malaria, as the only source of drugs to combat TB, and cattle medicines that control the spread of diseases from livestock to people. Following sanctions won't allow these drugs to be imported because of so-called 'dual-purpose' risks, so, guess what, 100,000 people have died since because they can't get the required drugs to treat their illnesses. Whoops, another 40 twin-towers come needlessly crashing down.

1991-2000. Sanctions in Iraq. A completely failed policy of sanctions prevents food and medicines getting through to the people of Iraq who need them the most. One of the healthiest countries in the middle east, armed, funded and backed by the US regime, is crippled. 500,000 people die as a direct result of western sanctions. 100 twin towers, full of children, have just crashed to the ground.

I'll slow down now, you're probably already bored, and anyway, got to watch out for the suicide bombers. But theres plenty more like this - Panama, Kosovo, Chechyna, Cambodia, Haiti, Somalia, Chile - didn't we shoot down an Iranian passenger airliner, what fun - and the information is out there, but sadly very rarely in newspapers. Terrorism of any nature is awful, and the War on Terrorism real, but its a war we started, and one that we've been rather good at. Its a world where we keep foreign governments under our control due to the crippling loans we force on them (Indonesia's debt = 170% of its GNP), forcing them to sign over their natural resources to their 'protectors' (there's an unnecessary, brutal civil war kept running by Indonesia's armed forces in Aceh, Sumatra, and oh yes, theres a massive oil plant that needs 'protecting' just there), and booting out the leaders, often by subversion, terrorism, and if all else fails, a nice little war, if they don't do exactly what we tell them. Human rights? hah! Ethical Foreign Policy? don't make me laugh. Just as Robin Cook was announcing this to the world, the leaders of East Timor's independence movement made a plea for us to stop selling arms to the government. Of course not said Cook. We're ethical. We believe in East Timor's right to independence. We'll stop now. Two months later the sales DOUBLE. and oh look, those our British tanks rumbling into villages in Aceh. Aren't those British made machine guns shooting the Palestinian refugees.

Our governments started this war, and the terrorists are just giving them a nice excuse to upscale it. Meanwhile, we're the ones dodging the bombs.

Oh, and plenty of reports from the Iranians that we already have Bin Laden in custody in Pakistan. Just don't expect to hear anything official until just before the American election.

 

[bhaexpress]

I agree completely B H.
The knee-jerk political soundbite from any given minister is to brand it a "cowardly attack". Whilst not trying to glorify it, I'd say a suicide bomber is a long way from being a "coward". Sitting on a bus wearing a semtex waistcoat and flicking the switch, or flying a plane into a building, is a monstrous act of unspeakable evil...but it shows a terrifying single-mindedness and grim determination to sacrifice your own life for a cause you believe in.

Thats not cowardly. Thats psychotic.

Should mention one thing. Moslem suicide bomers are not martyrs as we know it because their religion makes them believe that they are going to their version of heaven where a number of virgins are waiting for them to carry out their every whim. Let's say that they have some incentive.

Still, I've always wondered what female suicide bombers get ......

 

[Publius Ovidius]

IMHO, the root of the problem is many and varied, however one link is very strong.

ISRAEL

Bin Laden started his "armed resistance" to the West due to the presence of American troops and bases in the Muslim Holy land, Saudi Arabia. Why were the bases in Saudi in the first place?....protection of Israel from the threat of the Arab World following the 6 day War and the subsequent conficts in Lebanon and Syria.

The Jewish lobby in the United States is enormous and support for the Iraeli state( set up by the British in palestine in 1946) props up and finances the Right Wing government there.

Whilst Isreal continues to accept immigration and the desire of the population to occupy palestinian land and build settlements on land that was once home to Palestinians, there will always be trouble.

The Arab problem is not like the IRA/Irish problem that can be negotiated away, this is a fundamental grievance with 100% intransigence on both sides. Yes the Isreali's and Palestinians say the want to follow the "Road Map" but there is no-one in the world who believes that will suceed.

Where you have extremists who believe that their death is for the greater good, then you have martyrs. Where you have martyrs you have people who will take their place.

I think we in this country have been extremely fortunate so far that nothing has gone off in the UK. I firmly believe this is a matter of time before something does.

The trick is how do you stop it. We seem to be doing an excellent job at it at the moment, but where mass murder, like what happened in New York and Madrid is the order of the day for these terrorists, then civil liberties must suffer. That I suggest is a price worth paying.

"Gets off soap box"

 

[Easy 10]

Re: Re: "War on Terrorism" - is it hopeless ?

Our governments started this war, and the terrorists are just giving them a nice excuse to upscale it. Meanwhile, we're the ones dodging the bombs.

Oh, and plenty of reports from the Iranians that we already have Bin Laden in custody in Pakistan. Just don't expect to hear anything official until just before the American election.

As always there are 2 sides to every argument, and I won't pretend to know exactly how many of the anti-Western arguments you list above are actually accurate. Clearly attacks such as 9/11 and Madrid are not without motive, not without Cause, and there's always a queue of people lining up to criticise who's sold arms to who in the past, who's funded this, who's trained who etc etc, as a reason to justify why innocent civilians keep getting blown up in retaliation.

All I would say is this - NO cause is justifiable by murdering innocent people who are just going about their daily business. Suicide bombers, and the perpetrators of acts which destroy innocent lives, are scum of the highest order. Whether they be black, white, Arab, Basque, whatever. Not one single life is worth any political agenda or statement to make a point.

 

[fatbadger]

'Terrorism' cannot be defeated because of its nature. Relatively concrete abstractions such as states can be defeated, but entirely amorphous abstractions such as 'terrorism' cannot be.

And, of course, one person's terrorism is another person's freedom fight. And one person's freedom fight is another person's defence of the state. And one person's defence of the state is another person's terrorism.

 

[Lammy]

I doubt this was ETA. They opperate more along the line of the IRA. i.e. they tend to attack political targets and offer warnings. Their motive is to draw attention to their cause by causing disruption anf fear. Al-Qaeda on the other hand just enjoy killing as many innocent people as possible because they think Allah (God) wants to see loads of people killed.

The reason they choose Madrid over London was simply because it's a much softer target. Having been to Madrid several times I can tell you their security is virtually none exitant compared to ours. There are no announcments regarding left packages and you never see any staff on the platforms. They probably still have bins too?

Whilst I can't stand Al-Qaeda and what they stand for. Equally I can't stand the American Jews that are waging this war from the comfort of their homes in America.

Why can't people just live together? Governments should be elected for the good of the people not because of religion! As John Lennon once said "Imagine no religion" well I do mate it it's much nicer, safer world!

 

[Curious Orange]

To a certain extent we need to turn the other cheek. The least helpful thing that has ever been said by any polititian is that there is now a war on terrorism. That statement almost legitamises what those arseholes are doing, do we want a war with them? No. Do we want to live oppressed lives? No? Do we want them to live oppressed lives? No. Does blowing people up gain sympathy for their cause? No.

This must remain a police matter, the rule of law must be seen to work. Internment is not a solution, locking up people without charge is not worth it if any among them happen to be innocent - this just lowers us to the levels of some of the regimes we deplore.

 

[Meade's Ball]

Re: Re: Re: "War on Terrorism" - is it hopeless ?

All I would say is this - NO cause is justifiable by murdering innocent people who are just going about their daily business. Suicide bombers, and the perpetrators of acts which destroy innocent lives, are scum of the highest order. Whether they be black, white, Arab, Basque, whatever. Not one single life is worth any political agenda or statement to make a point.

That's true, but if you want a solution, it's not within an evil religion or a collective psychosis.
Personally, i am without hope. But not resistance.

 

[Publius Ovidius]

Lammy. without resorting to issueing a Fatwah on you, can you tell me where it says in the Koran that Allah enjoys seeing the death of innocent civilians?

 

[Yorkie]

'Terrorism' cannot be defeated because of its nature. Relatively concrete abstractions such as states can be defeated, but entirely amorphous abstractions such as 'terrorism' cannot be.

And, of course, one person's terrorism is another person's freedom fight. And one person's freedom fight is another person's defence of the state. And one person's defence of the state is another person's terrorism.

I agree with this sadly.

The only way for ordinary people like us to 'defeat' terrorism is not to give in to it. Carry on as normal. Do what you would normally do.

The whole idea is to terrorise people so that Governments are blackmailed into giving in to demands.

Even though it looks as though it isn't effective most of the time, the only way to change conditions is through the ballot box.

 

[Yorkie]

Lammy. without resorting to issuing a Fatwah on you, can you tell me where it says in the Koran that Allah enjoys seeing the death of innocent civilians?

It is called Jihad and Muslims are commanded to kill the infidel.

 

[Curious Orange]

I agree with this sadly.

The only way for ordinary people like us to 'defeat' terrorism is not to give in to it. Carry on as normal. Do what you would normally do.

The whole idea is to terrorise people so that Governments are blackmailed into giving in to demands.

Even though it looks as though it isn't effective most of the time, the only way to change conditions is through the ballot box.

Quite right Yorkie. Remember that you are still free, cup of tea, and get on with cleaning up the mess. We are British you know.

 

[fatbadger]

It is called Jihad and Muslims are commanded to kill the infidel.

But please note that the Koran is absolutely clear that infidels are those that are neither Moslems nor 'brothers of the book' - that's Jews, Christians and Zoroastrians.

And, anyway, the Koran does not command Moslems to kill the infidel.