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"Maybe the most important discovery in the history of archaeology."



Biscuit

Native Creative
Jul 8, 2003
22,280
Brighton
BBC News - Jordan battles to regain Christian relics

They could be the earliest Christian writing in existence, surviving almost 2,000 years in a Jordanian cave. They could, just possibly, change our understanding of how Jesus was crucified and resurrected, and how Christianity was born.

A group of 70 or so "books", each with between five and 15 lead leaves bound by lead rings, was apparently discovered in a remote arid valley in northern Jordan somewhere between 2005 and 2007.

A flash flood had exposed two niches inside the cave, one of them marked with a menorah or candlestick, the ancient Jewish religious symbol.

A Jordanian Bedouin opened these plugs, and what he found inside might constitute extremely rare relics of early Christianity.

That is certainly the view of the Jordanian government, which claims they were smuggled into Israel by another Bedouin.
Continue reading the main story
“Start Quote

As soon as I saw that, I was dumbstruck”

End Quote Philip Davies Sheffield University

The Israeli Bedouin who currently holds the books has denied smuggling them out of Jordan, and claims they have been in his family for 100 years.

Jordan says it will "exert all efforts at every level" to get the relics repatriated.
Incredible claims

The director of the Jordan's Department of Antiquities, Ziad al-Saad, says the books might have been made by followers of Jesus in the few decades immediately following his crucifixion.

"They will really match, and perhaps be more significant than, the Dead Sea Scrolls," says Mr Saad.

"Maybe it will lead to further interpretation and authenticity checks of the material, but the initial information is very encouraging, and it seems that we are looking at a very important and significant discovery, maybe the most important discovery in the history of archaeology."
Detail from the Jordanian relic The texts might have been written in the decades following the crucifixion

They seem almost incredible claims - so what is the evidence?

The books, or "codices", were apparently cast in lead, before being bound by lead rings.

Their leaves - which are mostly about the size of a credit card - contain text in Ancient Hebrew, most of which is in code.

If the relics are of early Christian origin rather than Jewish, then they are of huge significance.

One of the few people to see the collection is David Elkington, a scholar of ancient religious archaeology who is heading a British team trying to get the lead books safely into a Jordanian museum.

He says they could be "the major discovery of Christian history", adding: "It's a breathtaking thought that we have held these objects that might have been held by the early saints of the Church."

He believes the most telling evidence for an early Christian origin lies in the images decorating the covers of the books and some of the pages of those which have so far been opened.

Mr Elkington says the relics feature signs that early Christians would have interpreted as indicating Jesus, shown side-by-side with others they would have regarded as representing the presence of God.

"It's talking about the coming of the messiah," he says.

"In the upper square [of one of the book covers] we have the seven-branch menorah, which Jews were utterly forbidden to represent because it resided in the holiest place in the Temple in the presence of God.

"So we have the coming of the messiah to approach the holy of holies, in other words to get legitimacy from God."
Location clues

Philip Davies, Emeritus Professor of Old Testament Studies at Sheffield University, says the most powerful evidence for a Christian origin lies in plates cast into a picture map of the holy city of Jerusalem.

"As soon as I saw that, I was dumbstruck. That struck me as so obviously a Christian image," he says.

"There is a cross in the foreground, and behind it is what has to be the tomb [of Jesus], a small building with an opening, and behind that the walls of the city. There are walls depicted on other pages of these books too and they almost certainly refer to Jerusalem."
Book found in Jordan The books were bound by lead rings

It is the cross that is the most telling feature, in the shape of a capital T, as the crosses used by Romans for crucifixion were.

"It is a Christian crucifixion taking place outside the city walls," says Mr Davies.

Margaret Barker, an authority on New Testament history, points to the location of the reported discovery as evidence of Christian, rather than purely Jewish, origin.

"We do know that on two occasions groups of refugees from the troubles in Jerusalem fled east, they crossed the Jordan near Jericho and then they fled east to very approximately where these books were said to have been found," she says.

"[Another] one of the things that is most likely pointing towards a Christian provenance, is that these are not scrolls but books. The Christians were particularly associated with writing in a book form rather than scroll form, and sealed books in particular as part of the secret tradition of early Christianity."

The Book of Revelation refers to such sealed texts.

Another potential link with the Bible is contained in one of the few fragments of text from the collection to have been translated.

It appears with the image of the menorah and reads "I shall walk uprightly", a sentence that also appears in the Book of Revelation.

While it could be simply a sentiment common in Judaism, it could here be designed to refer to the resurrection.

It is by no means certain that all of the artefacts in the collection are from the same period.

But tests by metallurgists on the badly corroded lead suggest that the books were not made recently.

The archaeology of early Christianity is particularly sparse.

Little is known of the movement after Jesus' crucifixion until the letters of Paul several decades later, and they illuminate the westward spread of Christianity outside the Jewish world.

Never has there been a discovery of relics on this scale from the early Christian movement, in its homeland and so early in its history.
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Meh.
 




Easy 10

Brain dead MUG SHEEP
Jul 5, 2003
62,180
Location Location
I'm just forever grateful that they didn't discover some tedious pots and pans from circa 12ad when they finally started digging the foundations at you-know-where.

That would have been bloody typical.
 












And there will STILL be absolutely no evidence or contemporaneous writings that refer to the nazarene. Not a single historian thought it worth writing about the fact the graves opened and the dead walked the streets of Jerusaleum or that this person returned from the dead and the floated up into heaven.

They can find as many books as they want but until a contemporaneous account is unearthed I will still not believe he either existed nor that he was the son of their imaginary friend.
 


Titanic

Super Moderator
Helpful Moderator
Jul 5, 2003
39,721
West Sussex
And there will STILL be absolutely no evidence or contemporaneous writings that refer to the nazarene. Not a single historian thought it worth writing about the fact the graves opened and the dead walked the streets of Jerusaleum or that this person returned from the dead and the floated up into heaven.

They can find as many books as they want but until a contemporaneous account is unearthed I will still not believe he either existed nor that he was the son of their imaginary friend.

That's nice for you. Thank you for sharing.
 




Pavilionaire

Well-known member
Jul 7, 2003
31,099
It's almost unanimously accepted that Jesus DID exist - there are Roman historical accounts of the events in Judea covering this period that mention him. The same applies to John The Baptist.

As a historian I'm interested in the extent to which this man WAS like the man in the New Testament. I can buy the teaching, the faith healing, the incident in the temple and the crucifixion but it's the extent to which he was more than this that interests me.

This is a very exciting discovery.
 




Tony Meolas Loan Spell

Slut Faced Whores
Jul 15, 2004
18,068
Vamanos Pest
It's almost unanimously accepted that Jesus DID exist - there are Roman historical accounts of the events in Judea covering this period that mention him. The same applies to John The Baptist.

As a historian I'm interested in the extent to which this man WAS like the man in the New Testament. I can buy the teaching, the faith healing, the incident in the temple and the crucifixion but it's the extent to which he was more than this that interests me.

This is a very exciting discovery.

This.
 




Scampi

One of the Three
Jun 10, 2009
1,531
Denton
It's almost unanimously accepted that Jesus DID exist - there are Roman historical accounts of the events in Judea covering this period that mention him. The same applies to John The Baptist.

.


Are you sure about that. My understanding was that Christianity isn't mentioned in contemporary sources.
 


Pavilionaire

Well-known member
Jul 7, 2003
31,099
Josephus, Tacitus, Pliny The Younger refer to the historical Jesus (Christus) and the 1st century early Christians. The Talmud and Qu'ran also refer to Jesus.
 


Thunder Bolt

Silly old bat
I would think this would help with Jewish history as it is written in Hebrew but the earliest Christian letters (written within 20 years of the death of Christ) and gospels are all in Greek. I wonder why this is being linked to Christianity and not Judaism?
 




Biscuit

Native Creative
Jul 8, 2003
22,280
Brighton
I would think this would help with Jewish history as it is written in Hebrew but the earliest Christian letters (written within 20 years of the death of Christ) and gospels are all in Greek. I wonder why this is being linked to Christianity and not Judaism?

Cross on the front and the location of its discovery.
 


Scampi

One of the Three
Jun 10, 2009
1,531
Denton
Josephus, Tacitus, Pliny The Younger refer to the historical Jesus (Christus) and the 1st century early Christians. The Talmud and Qu'ran also refer to Jesus.

So nothing contemporary, all these were writing at the end of the first century at the earliest and:

Josephus - Widely belived the passage that directly refers to Jesus is a later insertion, i.e. not actually written by him but added by copyists

Pliny the Younger mentions christians, but that is not direct evidence for jesus

Tacitus is believed to be repeating what he's been told by Cristians, so not an independent source


The Kuran and talmud are hardly credible historical documents on the period.
 


Albion Rob

New member
I wonder if, in 500 years, historians will unearth threads such as this from the NSC archives and begin to refer to them as 'The NSC Delusion'. It occurs when two sets of people with vastly different world views try to convince the other they are right through heated debate and argument.

Actually, to be fair that's not really what's happening here (yet) but someone posted this gag about four years agao and I've been meaning to repeat it for ages!

Interesting and exciting find, by the way.
 


Biscuit

Native Creative
Jul 8, 2003
22,280
Brighton
So nothing contemporary, all these were writing at the end of the first century at the earliest and:

Josephus - Widely belived the passage that directly refers to Jesus is a later insertion, i.e. not actually written by him but added by copyists

Pliny the Younger mentions christians, but that is not direct evidence for jesus

Tacitus is believed to be repeating what he's been told by Cristians, so not an independent source


The Kuran and talmud are hardly credible historical documents on the period.

Well it's all a load of shit anyway so I don't know why you're getting your knickers in a twist!
 




Easy 10

Brain dead MUG SHEEP
Jul 5, 2003
62,180
Location Location
hi_res_product_40486_094011.jpg


It'd have to go some to be a more important discovery than THIS.
 


Simster

"the man's an arse"
Jul 7, 2003
54,804
Surrey
We will terraform and colonize Mars or Venus before we find proof that any of the major religions holds water.
 


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