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Bold Seagull

strong and stable with me, or...
Mar 18, 2010
30,311
Hove
Out of interest, how many of those banging on about big business evading tax still buy coffee from Starbucks, have a Vodafone mobile or shop from Amazon ?

It's the responsibility of the consumer to ensure a company pays it's tax!? Well there is a novel thought. I often do a bit of research on a company's human rights record or its ethical trade ethos, but I think checking their annual accounts might be a bit far. I think you'll find that's what HMRC is for.....oh, and there is a difference between 'evade' and 'avoid' - the difference is the thickness of a cell wall!
 




Colossal Squid

Returning video tapes
Feb 11, 2010
4,906
Under the sea
What steps have you taken, and are you taking, to ensure your employer makes a full and proper contribution to UK PLC? I imagine you are petitioning hard from the inside, right?

I realise you were on a wind up from the start, but what's the need for this comment? You've lost me now. What's your angle? What's your point? Why are you doing this?
 


somerset

New member
Jul 14, 2003
6,600
Yatton, North Somerset
If there is a single security guard at that Tesco's you mention, and there are 2 thefts at the same time; one the single bottle of cider, the second a guy has stolen £1000 from one of the tills. Who does he go after? By YOUR logic, they are both the same, and in some ways they are - they are both theft. But who do you reckon Tesco's would prefer their guard to get?

Same with you actually, you're in the street and simultaneously, someone nicks a £1 coin out of your pocket, while another person grabs you're wallet which has £100 in it. Both theft, both as bad as each other. The person grabbing the £1 looks a bit slow, maybe undernourished actually, you could probably take him in a fight - fair game. The person grabbing the wallet though, looks sharp, pretty fit and strong, could be a challenge tackling him, might put a big fight. Who do you go after??
Its called choice and opportunity, neither, both or either are the answers to your incisive examples, but they are a little too 'out there' to be useful in this debate.
 


Bozza

You can change this
Helpful Moderator
Jul 4, 2003
56,665
Back in Sussex
Probably about as much as you.

In the mean time, good luck with the anti-Waynetta benefit scrounger march that you're obviously currently organising, seeing as you seem to be suggesting that you are far more prinicipled than I am.

I'm not suggesting no such thing. Apologies if my question has made you feel a bit awkward, as your sniping suggests.

All I'm suggesting is that I think human nature is such that a lot of people will take what they can for themselves, and their families, and are happy to dilute their principles when things become so close to home.

Get paid less and/or lose that nice annual bonus in order that your employer can contribute more in UK taxation? No thanks, most would prefer their corporate accountants and lawyers work international tax legislation as hard as possible, if it means boosting their take home pay.
 


BadFish

Huge Member
Oct 19, 2003
17,912
Its called choice and opportunity, neither, both or either are the answers to your incisive examples, but they are a little too 'out there' to be useful in this debate.

A pretty good analogy if you ask me!
 




Bold Seagull

strong and stable with me, or...
Mar 18, 2010
30,311
Hove
Its called choice and opportunity, neither, both or either are the answers to your incisive examples, but they are a little too 'out there' to be useful in this debate.

You're actually very funny! You came up with the bottle of cider analogy which I just expand on, then all of a sudden they're 'out there'. It's actually like discussing something with someone with no short term memory. Are you a fan of the film Mememto?
 


beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
35,842
It's the responsibility of the consumer to ensure a company pays it's tax!?

actually, some economists might argue that the consumer pays the tax in the end anyway. while its a fun highlighting all the companies avoiding tax, i dont see as much effort highlighting the tax thats paid here on profits repatriated from abroad.
 


Bozza

You can change this
Helpful Moderator
Jul 4, 2003
56,665
Back in Sussex
I realise you were on a wind up from the start, but what's the need for this comment? You've lost me now. What's your angle? What's your point? Why are you doing this?

Covered in my post above, hopefully. I just think most employees are happy for our respective employers to work tax laws hard if it means we get paid a little bit more.
 




Simster

"the man's an arse"
Jul 7, 2003
54,803
Surrey
I'm not suggesting no such thing. Apologies if my question has made you feel a bit awkward, as your sniping suggests.
It didn't make me feel awkward, as no sane person would waste time doing what you were saying. My sniping was a reflection on the fact that you seemed to suggest that by not carrying this out, I was somehow being hypocritical, when the fact is I was being no more hypocritical than you are for not actively campaigning for all chav scroungers to have their benefits curtailed.

All I'm suggesting is that I think human nature is such that a lot of people will take what they can for themselves, and their families, and are happy to dilute their principles when things become so close to home.

Get paid less and/or lose that nice annual bonus in order that your employer can contribute more in UK taxation? No thanks, most would prefer their corporate accountants and lawyers work international tax legislation as hard as possible, if it means boosting their take home pay.
This is of course very true, but doesn't make it right. Self serving is a fact of life, so are you saying that we shouldn't look to improve social justice, simply because we all seek to gain the best for ourselves from the current situation?
 


somerset

New member
Jul 14, 2003
6,600
Yatton, North Somerset
That's not the answer though, is it? They should simply all pay their taxes. Trade here, make profits here, pay your frigging taxes here. Do that and we'll all be better off.
What I find hard to believe is that you lot keep banging on about this issue. This issue is high on the priority list of the 'erberts in Whitehall, it has been well publicised, and is getting more public by the year. Steps are being taken to close the loopholes ( a matter of record somewhere) though as always these things take time, with new legislation or tax laws making their way through the democratic system that we enjoy. There is a balance of course, like EVERY government in just about EVERY country in the world, as has been mentioned in this thread already, incentives and tax breaks are offered to get large employers to invest and employ to the greater good of their respective nations..... speculation. Having said that, I do think that tax burdens of >10% as has been reported for some corporations, is taking the proverbial.
 


Nibble

New member
Jan 3, 2007
19,238
It is expected that latest figures will show that the excellent work from our coalition government has turned the UK economy round and we are in growth territory once again.

Well done to all involved. (That doesn't include Milliband, Balls and the other loony lefts.)

Oh do give over. Those figures were outed as being maniupulated bollocks within minutes of being announced.
 




Nibble

New member
Jan 3, 2007
19,238
What I find hard to believe is that you lot keep banging on about this issue. This issue is high on the priority list of the 'erberts in Whitehall, it has been well publicised, and is getting more public by the year. Steps are being taken to close the loopholes ( a matter of record somewhere) though as always these things take time, with new legislation or tax laws making their way through the democratic system that we enjoy. There is a balance of course, like EVERY government in just about EVERY country in the world, as has been mentioned in this thread already, incentives and tax breaks are offered to get large employers to invest and employ to the greater good of their respective nations..... speculation. Having said that, I do think that tax burdens of >10% as has been reported for some corporations, is taking the proverbial.

Yes, it does take time to get done. The cuts to benefits etc however only took a few months.
 


somerset

New member
Jul 14, 2003
6,600
Yatton, North Somerset
You're actually very funny! You came up with the bottle of cider analogy which I just expand on, then all of a sudden they're 'out there'. It's actually like discussing something with someone with no short term memory. Are you a fan of the film Mememto?
A single example to illustrate the extremes, your simplistic examples did nothing to assist in the debate, I understood them.
 


Bold Seagull

strong and stable with me, or...
Mar 18, 2010
30,311
Hove
Covered in my post above, hopefully. I just think most employees are happy for our respective employers to work tax laws hard if it means we get paid a little bit more.

Which is why, in a nutshell it is so easy, for the press, politicians, media, and the general public to demonise the benefit system. It has no direct impact on our earnings from our employers, or on the products we buy as consumers. They are, in military terms, the soft target, and in the great scheme of things, largely irrelevant to the wider economy as a whole. Nevertheless, they are portrayed as critical to this countries recovery and it is frankly laughable.
 




Bold Seagull

strong and stable with me, or...
Mar 18, 2010
30,311
Hove
A single example to illustrate the extremes, your simplistic examples did nothing to assist in the debate, I understood them.

So, are you still dithering as to whether to chase the guy with the £1, or the guy with your wallet?

I've already tackled the guy with my wallet. I got a black eye for my trouble, but I got my £100 back! Not sure what happened to the guy who got my £1 though, I think he went to Tesco's to get a bottle of cider....
 


somerset

New member
Jul 14, 2003
6,600
Yatton, North Somerset
Yes, it does take time to get done. The cuts to benefits etc however only took a few months.
Like every task we as humans endeavour to deliver, we often tackle the easier ones first, or in a democratic system, the tasks that will win more votes. Doesn't that tell you that the silent majority in this country have a similar focus on the botoom end of the fraud/evasion question, be that right or wrong.
 


somerset

New member
Jul 14, 2003
6,600
Yatton, North Somerset
So, are you still dithering as to whether to chase the guy with the £1, or the guy with your wallet?

I've already tackled the guy with my wallet. I got a black eye for my trouble, but I got my £100 back! Not sure what happened to the guy who got my £1 though, I think he went to Tesco's to get a bottle of cider....
Unfortunately, to extrapolate that metaphorical 'black-eye' into real world consequences, it would instead be more unemployment and less tax entering the treasury coffers. Like I said, swings and roundabouts, less tax in return for more employment and a more vibrant economy, but as I also said, I think some of the tax figures quoted in the press of late do take the piss, it does need rebalancing.
 


Bold Seagull

strong and stable with me, or...
Mar 18, 2010
30,311
Hove
Like every task we as humans endeavour to deliver, we often tackle the easier ones first, or in a democratic system, the tasks that will win more votes. Doesn't that tell you that the silent majority in this country have a similar focus on the botoom end of the fraud/evasion question, be that right or wrong.

The £1 it is then!!! Come on, it's a great analogy, and fits what you have said there perfectly!!
 




Bozza

You can change this
Helpful Moderator
Jul 4, 2003
56,665
Back in Sussex
This is of course very true, but doesn't make it right. Self serving is a fact of life, so are you saying that we shouldn't look to improve social justice, simply because we all seek to gain the best for ourselves from the current situation?

I'm all for social justice*.




* As long as it doesn't impact me adversely in any way at all.
 


BadFish

Huge Member
Oct 19, 2003
17,912
Like every task we as humans endeavour to deliver, we often tackle the easier ones first, or in a democratic system, the tasks that will win more votes. Doesn't that tell you that the silent majority in this country have a similar focus on the botoom end of the fraud/evasion question, be that right or wrong.

The silent majority are influenced by the media who have reciprocal influence with the government, who in turn have reciprocal influence with the businesses they should be effectively taxing.

This means that what the majority thinks about the fraud/evasions question is, as you point out irrelevant to whether it is morally, socially or economically right or logical.
 


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