David Starkey 'The whites have become black'

[Biscuit]

BBC News - England riots: says David Starkey

""Historian David Starkey has told BBC's Newsnight ''the whites have become black'' in a discussion on the England riots with author and broadcaster Dreda Say Mitchell and the author of Chavs, Owen Jones.

He also hit out at what he called the ''destructive, nihilistic gangster culture'' which he said ''has become the fashion.''""

Some interesting points made on both sides. It's a shame Starkey wasn't allowed to finish as although he got his terminology wrong ('back culture' was used rather than the more politically friendly 'urban culture') I think he may have the beginnings of a good point. It isn't about race it's about an underclass that embraces ignorance and rejects education.

 

[Rich Suvner]

I think he's somewhat correct in the statement that a ''destructive, nihilistic gangster culture has become the fashion.''

However, I think he's on on other aspects he sounds like an old man who is making statements about things he knows very little about - his take on rap for example, is very selective.

And although I certainly think that some communities need to take a much more critical assessment of themselves sometimes, rather than passing the blame, I think he has sounded as though he's made an assessment that white = behaved/educated, black = criminal/subversive. And that is clearly devoid of merit, and surprising from an academic.

 

[perseus]

Academic Tower

David Starkey is deluded. In Tudor times there was an underclass of the less fortunate.

 

[blue'n'white]

I understand exactly where he's coming from - white kids these days want to be black (it's fashionable) which is why they try to imitate the Jamaican accent, patois and yeah the lifestyle
David Starkey didn't put it too well which is why he's been lambasted for it

 

[The Rivet]

So David Starkey is irrelevant because he is perceived by the under 30's as an old man? He is perceived to be irrelevant because he is 'deluded'! Dare I say it the man has more IQ and intelligence quota than more than three quarters of the posters on NSC! You idiots who dare to undervalue the lessons learnt from the past, as well as warnings from the past are fools. Whould anyone on here dare to contradict Mr Starkey's observations on history and the effect on future, bearing in mind his absolute certainty about fact. Ie, would anyone dare to contradict him on educational terms? Just a thought

 

[Lush]

There's something about the whole thing that reminds me of this:

[yt]9UMedd03JCA[/yt]

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

the problem was he was never allowed to develope any point he made. Instead they kept asking, frankly, numpties their views.

 

[Mr Burns]

BBC News - England riots: says David Starkey

""Historian David Starkey has told BBC's Newsnight ''the whites have become black'' in a discussion on the England riots with author and broadcaster Dreda Say Mitchell and the author of Chavs, Owen Jones.

He also hit out at what he called the ''destructive, nihilistic gangster culture'' which he said ''has become the fashion.''""

Some interesting points made on both sides. It's a shame Starkey wasn't allowed to finish as although he got his terminology wrong ('back culture' was used rather than the more politically friendly 'urban culture') I think he may have the beginnings of a good point. It isn't about race it's about an underclass that embraces ignorance and rejects education.

Too much sun.

 

[Seagull over Canaryland]

David Starkey had the guts to say what a lot of people think and feel to be the truth but are too frightened to do themselves as they will be castigated for bigotry. Starkey has put forward a rational intellectual view - but not exactly rocket science. There will be people who do not like - or cannot bring themselves to accept there is a lot of truth in his observations.

However his analysis is merely about the 'effect', and not the 'cause'. Clearly the latter needs to be addressed. Give the kids a different focus rather than ineffective parenting, with no discipline or sense of responsibility, a lost perspective of what is right or wrong, their 'reality' is violent computer games, values based on US RAP gangsta role models that glamorises crime, violence and hate towards authority. In their eyes 'respect' is quantified in how bad you are. Compounded by a feeling that it is easier to sit back and claim benefits rather than seek gainful employment and save to pay for the material things rather than feeling a need to steal or loot, thereby reinforcing your bad boy status. Conversely the average working punter in this country feels squeezed between the inequalities of this underclass and the excesses of MPs and bankers who seem impervious to moral responsibility. This fractured society cannot be changed overnight and is a huge task.

We have taken the emphasis off responsible parenting, whether it is for the privileged white Charlie Gilmore types or the disadvantaged inner city black kids. It seems that many parents have seized this opportunity with both hands and totally abdicated. Their kids are out of control. School teachers are too scared of disciplining kids. The Police are frustrated at the softly softly punishments dished out by Courts to the bad boys, who then think 'crime pays'. Look at the the parents who failed to attend Court when they kids appeared on charges - sums the whole thing up.

Meanwhile in the workplace is there too much time and effort spent on understanding equality fairness and dignity and employers training their staff to tip toe around any sensitive issues. Yes it is important to understand the community that you work in, and the colleagues you work with. But employers are tripping over themselves to meet targets and gain political brownie points. The workplace has become so politically correct and pink and fluffy that you cannot sneeze without someone crying you have infringed their rights. We have lost sight of reality. Somehow we need to find / rediscover a more realistic set of values that do respect each other but also help everyone to co-exist in a fairer and more co-hesive way. In particular to help younger people to grow up feeling that they have a stake and a future, especially if they contribute back. This is bigger than any political parties. Society has to get a grip if it wants to change or we will descend into a lawless society.

 

[public school boy]

Street language and street fashion seem to have a distinct leaning towards the black society. The expression Wigger springs to mind when describing some White youths. I'm old enough to remember how some Punk musicians were considered but now those in questions make TV ads for insurance companies and those producing dairy products.

 

[Kaiser_Soze]

So David Starkey is irrelevant because he is perceived by the under 30's as an old man? He is perceived to be irrelevant because he is 'deluded'! Dare I say it the man has more IQ and intelligence quota than more than three quarters of the posters on NSC! You idiots who dare to undervalue the lessons learnt from the past, as well as warnings from the past are fools. Whould anyone on here dare to contradict Mr Starkey's observations on history and the effect on future, bearing in mind his absolute certainty about fact. Ie, would anyone dare to contradict him on educational terms? Just a thought

I agree with you but you let yourself down there. IQ is Intelligence Quotient.Sorry to be picky but couldnt resist when you made the comment you did

 

[north stand falmer]

Whites have become blacks?. Maybe whites have figured out that blacks and ethnic manoritys get better treatment so decided if you can't beat them join them.

 

[Tony Meolas Loan Spell]

In some respects he is right. Go into any RnB club.

 

[arfer guinness]

I understand exactly where he's coming from - white kids these days want to be black (it's fashionable) which is why they try to imitate the Jamaican accent, patois and yeah the lifestyle
David Starkey didn't put it too well which is why he's been lambasted for it

Agree, I was on a train recently heading back to West London where I live and heard 1 white teen in a crowd of half a dozen declare " wez back in me manor now ". To me he sounded like a right prat, to his mates he was normal.

 

[The Rivet]

I agree with you but you let yourself down there. IQ is Intelligence Quotient.Sorry to be picky but couldnt resist when you made the comment you did

Ah yes, the most horrendous offence of the extra 'quota' and the unnecessary
extra word! Note to self: Must try harder when achohol fog rolls over me!

 

[glasfryn]

David Starkey had the guts to say what a lot of people think and feel to be the truth but are too frightened to do themselves as they will be castigated for bigotry. Starkey has put forward a rational intellectual view - but not exactly rocket science. There will be people who do not like - or cannot bring themselves to accept there is a lot of truth in his observations.

However his analysis is merely about the 'effect', and not the 'cause'. Clearly the latter needs to be addressed. Give the kids a different focus rather than ineffective parenting, with no discipline or sense of responsibility, a lost perspective of what is right or wrong, their 'reality' is violent computer games, values based on US RAP gangsta role models that glamorises crime, violence and hate towards authority. In their eyes 'respect' is quantified in how bad you are. Compounded by a feeling that it is easier to sit back and claim benefits rather than seek gainful employment and save to pay for the material things rather than feeling a need to steal or loot, thereby reinforcing your bad boy status. Conversely the average working punter in this country feels squeezed between the inequalities of this underclass and the excesses of MPs and bankers who seem impervious to moral responsibility. This fractured society cannot be changed overnight and is a huge task.

We have taken the emphasis off responsible parenting, whether it is for the privileged white Charlie Gilmore types or the disadvantaged inner city black kids. It seems that many parents have seized this opportunity with both hands and totally abdicated. Their kids are out of control. School teachers are too scared of disciplining kids. The Police are frustrated at the softly softly punishments dished out by Courts to the bad boys, who then think 'crime pays'. Look at the the parents who failed to attend Court when they kids appeared on charges - sums the whole thing up.

Meanwhile in the workplace is there too much time and effort spent on understanding equality fairness and dignity and employers training their staff to tip toe around any sensitive issues. Yes it is important to understand the community that you work in, and the colleagues you work with. But employers are tripping over themselves to meet targets and gain political brownie points. The workplace has become so politically correct and pink and fluffy that you cannot sneeze without someone crying you have infringed their rights. We have lost sight of reality. Somehow we need to find / rediscover a more realistic set of values that do respect each other but also help everyone to co-exist in a fairer and more co-hesive way. In particular to help younger people to grow up feeling that they have a stake and a future, especially if they contribute back. This is bigger than any political parties. Society has to get a grip if it wants to change or we will descend into a lawless society.

that is one cracking post and says exactly what I would say myself,I would just add that the fairer society has to be adopted by all, and also that not all youth is "bad" some are very decent human beings and could maybe teach their parents something about life

 

[Kaiser_Soze]

Ah yes, the most horrendous offence of the extra 'quota' and the unnecessary
extra word! Note to self: Must try harder when achohol fog rolls over me!

Those extra words can make all the difference. Damn alcohol fog. Still, if thats the worst drunken errror it's all good.