[News] Nigel Farage and Reform

Harry Wilson's tackle · Jul 6, 2024

Eric the meek said:
Why should he listen to anyone, including the Speaker, when he is completely convinced he is always right?

I may have to stock up with popcorn. It could turn out to be quite funny. He may even try to emulate Trump when he's turfed out and dumped on his arse on College Green, and incite an insurrection among his waiting throng (3 retired taxi drives from Clacton, a schoolboy home-made bomb maker from Croydon, and a middle aged woman with no teeth).

Harry Wilson's tackle · Jul 6, 2024

WATFORD zero said:
I don't think we have to work with the UN or America in order for the UK to recognise the Palestinian state. Spain, Ireland, Norway and 140 odd others haven't

Oh, we can do that. Five minute job!

(Is that all it will take to stop Bibi and create a free Palestinian state? Incredible. I never realized!)

WATFORD zero · Jul 6, 2024

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
Oh, we can do that. Five minute job!

(Is that all it will take to stop Bibi and create a free Palestinian state? Incredible. I never realized!)

As you well know H, that is why I said

WATFORD zero said:
I hope so. I believe any step we can take to help create the environment for a two state solution will be good thing, no matter how small

On the post you originally quoted :wink:

Glad you're on board with it though :thumbsup:

Eric the meek · Jul 6, 2024

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
I may have to stock up with popcorn. It could turn out to be quite funny. He may even try to emulate Trump when he's turfed out and dumped on his arse on College Green, and incite an insurrection among his waiting throng (3 retired taxi drives from Clacton, a schoolboy home-made bomb maker from Croydon, and a middle aged woman with no teeth).

Absolutely. The guy is box office. Or maybe orifice. One of those anyway.

Mind you, having just despatched the Tories, in his victory speech, he took aim at FPTP. And Labour. He's a man on a mission...

Guinness Boy · Jul 6, 2024

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
Lots of Labour 'friends of Israel' and 'Labour friends of Palestine' in the new cabinet. Some being friends of both.

I don't think 'we' an do anything on our own. Cabinet chap on the last question time said as much. Wants to work with the UN and America. Standing on the outside, demanding things is useless.

Which is why it is such a shame some Muslim voters decided that this is what they would do, rather than elect a Labour MP. Oh well, never mind. Labour's actions will be what matters to the majority of the population.

This is exactly what I’ve been trying to get at for a few weeks.

To influence Israel, and help bring about peace, you have to a) be in power and b) have one or two people “in the tent”.

Labour needs to work internationally to stop the slaughter and broker a peace as fast as possible. But a Muslim only vote is as bad as a Reform vote and just as ineffective.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Jul 6, 2024

Eric the meek said:
Absolutely. The guy is box office. Or maybe orifice. One of those anyway.

Mind you, having just despatched the Tories, in his victory speech, he took aim at FPTP. And Labour. He's a man on a mission...

His sudden conversion to PR will of course stymie the other small parties who have all been clamoring to ditch FPTP because it is 'undemocratic and unfair'. Farage agrees.

He now has a new cause that he can weaponize, along with attacking Labour whenever HMG does anything remotely collegiate with Foreign Nations (unless it's Putin of course).

Let's see if the Greens and Liberals can form a parliamentary pact with Farage to defeat FPTP. Oh my, the delicious dilemma :lolol:

Edited to reduce the risk of resistance.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Jul 6, 2024

Guinness Boy said:
This is exactly what I’ve been trying to get at for a few weeks.

To influence Israel, and help bring about peace, you have to a) be in power and b) have one or two people “in the tent”.

Labour needs to work internationally to stop the slaughter and broker a peace as fast as possible. But a Muslim only vote is as bad as a Reform vote and just as ineffective.

Nail. Head. :thumbsup:

jonny.rainbow · Jul 6, 2024

Hugo Rune said:
They will have zero affect in the Parliament in my opinion. They might or might not be effective MPs for their constituents but they clearly only represented one element of the community during the election which can’t be a good thing.

However, Labour have taken note. The mission to get elected is now complete. Whilst Labour surely won’t do things like introducing sanctions on Israel, the dial will change. The right wing media is much less of a consideration now. I think they’ll look at formally recognising the Palestinian state like Spain and Ireland very soon.

Oh good.
At least only 40,000 people had to die before the Labour leadership felt they could take this position.

happypig · Jul 6, 2024

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
Let's see if the Greens and Liberals can form a parliamentary pact with Farage to defeat FPTP. Ohm the delicious dilemma

There'll be a lot of resistance.

Hugo Rune · Jul 6, 2024

jonny.rainbow said:
Oh good.
At least only 40,000 people had to die before the Labour leadership felt they could take this position.

Oh good.

Another person thinks Labour could have made Britain recognise the Palestinian state without being in power.

jonny.rainbow · Jul 6, 2024

Hugo Rune said:
Oh good.

Another person thinks Labour could have made Britain recognise the Palestinian state without being in power.

Lovely straight and crooked thinking there.

How was it not possible for the Labour Leadership to state they recognise a Palestinian state? They were able to state they believed zero hours contracts should end, breakfast clubs should be introduced for all school children and the Rwanda scheme should be scrapped. Why not state their position on Palestine?

Harry Wilson's tackle · Jul 6, 2024

WATFORD zero said:
As you well know H, that is why I said

On the post you originally quoted

Glad you're on board with it though

Sorry I missread.

When you wrote "I believe any step we can take to help create the environment for a two state solution will be good thing, no matter how small". I skimmed over 'the environment for'. You perhaps should have added 'initial discussions about' to avoid neurodiverse types like myself quibbling. Anyway, let's quibble a bit more.....

Presently Israel (well, Bibi) is not interested in a two state solution. So the process that must happen (in reverse order) is this:

Create a two state solution
Get Israel and Palestine to agree a two state solution
Get Israel and Palestine to agree to a permanent ceasefire
Get Israel and Palestine to meet to discuss the creation of a permanent ceasefire

So I am having trouble working out where to fit this in:

Get Israel to agree to recognize Palestine as a legitimate independent state

This would need to be the very first thing (at the bottom of my list) surely, in order for the UK recognizing Palestine as a legitimate independent state to have any relevance? Otherwise why bother? I may be wrong but I do not see this as being remotely in the minds of Israel (Bibi and the opposition parties) whose number one imperative right now is to free Israeli hostages (and arguably do massive amounts of smiting). So there is a danger that the UK recognizing Palestine now may be an irrelevance at best, and something else to annoy Israel about at worst.

I am happy to be corrected, as it 'feels' to me like a 'good' thing to do to 'recognize' Palestine, but I would advocate it (and agitate for it) only if it will have only positive consequences.

To add to my 'it may not be as simple as that' narrative, I recall how Corbyn and others promoted Irish Nationalism in Ulster during 'the troubles' (something for which many NSC readers, especially ex-service people, will never forget or forgive). Form afar it may seem that recognizing the legitimacy of a united Ireland (how ironic that the call from Corbyn-left was for a one nation solution in that conflict) was a noble gesture in pursuit of peace. In fact it was irrelevant and potentially dangerous. Unknown to Corbyn, the IRA signalled an end to hostilities when they contact HMG secret service with the message "The war is over". The Major government had started negotiations - albeit rather uncomfortably - and these were taken to a new level by Blair, eventually resulting in the peace process. There was no 'recognition' of a 'united Ireland' state. Corbyn meeting the IRA after the Brighton bombing years earlier may have been well-intentioned, but now it looks crass. And it certainly played no role in the eventual resolution.

So.....maybe lots of nations unilaterally recognizing Palestine may do no harm. Recognizing the Turkish republic of North Cyprus (we don't) is another example. But I fear that unilaterally recognizing Palestine may do more harm than good. I don't know for sure, so I can't immediately agree with you 'every little bit helps' perspective. I am not a diplomat and don't understand diplomacy so I may be wrong. :thumbsup:

Harry Wilson's tackle · Jul 6, 2024

jonny.rainbow said:
Oh good.
At least only 40,000 people had to die before the Labour leadership felt they could take this position.

You think that had they done so earlier 40,000 people would not have died?

Harry Wilson's tackle · Jul 6, 2024

jonny.rainbow said:
Lovely straight and crooked thinking there.

How was it not possible for the Labour Leadership to state they recognise a Palestinian state? They were able to state they believed zero hours contracts should end, breakfast clubs should be introduced for all school children and the Rwanda scheme should be scrapped. Why not state their position on Palestine?

See my post above about the uncertainty of the impact of political gesture.

A1X · Jul 6, 2024

jonny.rainbow said:
Oh good.
At least only 40,000 people had to die before the Labour leadership felt they could take this position.

“Guys, Hamas have attacked us from Gaza and taken a load of civilian hostages!”

“What? f***. We must deploy the military and get the, back.”

“I dunno” *sucks air in through teeth* “the UK’s opposition party is planning on recognising a Palestinian state at some point when they get in.”

“Shit. Well I guess we’re screwed then.”

Greg Bobkin · Jul 6, 2024

nevergoagain said:
Not disagreeing overall but what else would you expect him to do with one protestor after another disrupting?, not too disimilar to Jess Phillips.

Engage/reason with them and try and sort issues out in a polite, grown-up manner? Or, failing that, not react and just let the people throwing the protectors out do their thing.

Machiavelli · Jul 6, 2024

jonny.rainbow said:
Lovely straight and crooked thinking there.

How was it not possible for the Labour Leadership to state they recognise a Palestinian state? They were able to state they believed zero hours contracts should end, breakfast clubs should be introduced for all school children and the Rwanda scheme should be scrapped. Why not state their position on Palestine?

It's somewhat tricky to recognise a Palestinian state when there isn't one. Israel, via the US' veto power in the UNSC, has prevented that for 75 years now.
There are plenty of other nation states that support the creation of a Palestinian state and, with a bit of luck, Starmer and Lammy have working with such partners to achieve that aim as one of their highest priorities in foreign policy. I think Starmer misjudged the Gaza situation badly, in no small part due to his focus on detoxifying the antisemitism link with Labour, but think we need to give them both a chance now they've got office and can wield influence more effectively.

jonny.rainbow · Jul 6, 2024

Machiavelli said:
It's somewhat tricky to recognise a Palestinian state when there isn't one. Israel, via the US' veto power in the UNSC, has prevented that for 75 years now.
There are plenty of other nation states that support the creation of a Palestinian state and, with a bit of luck, Starmer and Lammy have working with such partners to achieve that aim as one of their highest priorities in foreign policy. I think Starmer misjudged the Gaza situation badly, in no small part due to his focus on detoxifying the antisemitism link with Labour, but think we need to give them both a chance now they've got office and can wield influence more effectively.

The majority of the UN recognise the state of Palestine.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Jul 6, 2024

jonny.rainbow said:
The majority of the UN recognise the state of Palestine.

Problem solved then! Hooray for peace.

Sorry to be facetious. Perhaps it would be nice if Starmer does recognize the state of Palestine. You have disregarded my, not exactly concerns, but something, however.

Anyway, England now. Enjoy your afternoon.

Machiavelli · Jul 6, 2024

jonny.rainbow said:
The majority of the UN recognise the state of Palestine.

It is only through the UN that you are recognised as a state. What individual member states do means diddly squat. If you want statehood, it has to be granted by the UN. Palestine doesn't have that. This is what their struggle is about. It means that Israel can occupy their territories or, in the case of Gaza, treat it as an enormous prison camp.

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