deletebeepbeepbeep
Well-known member
- May 12, 2009
- 21,632
Can't stand Luke the Nuke
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[Politics] The NSC 'up all night' election night *** OFFICIAL MATCH THREAD ***
- Thread starter Bozza
- Start date
TomandJerry
Well-known member
- Oct 1, 2013
- 12,323
Thanks for explaining FPTP to me. I have been voting for decades and do understand it.
You seem to suggest PR would be fairer in the US than the UK? Why would this be the case?
I get your point about independents but then there are different forms of PR. For example, Corbyn would be fine under German PR. In fact, there’s 5 independents in the Bundestag at the moment.
Uh_huh_him
Well-known member
- Sep 28, 2011
- 11,642
Under the most simplistic PR model, each seat equates to 1/650th of the overall votes cast.
In this year's election 48m votes were cast, meaning each seat requires approximately 74000 votes.
The total votes cast in Islington North was 49000
Jezza got 24000 votes which entitles him to 1/3 of a seat.
Uh_huh_him
Well-known member
- Sep 28, 2011
- 11,642
PR is fairer in Presidential elections, apologies for not being clearer.Thanks for explaining FPTP to me. I have been voting for decades and do understand it.
You seem to suggest PR would be fairer in the US than the UK? Why would this be the case?
I get your point about independents but then there are different forms of PR. For example, Corbyn would be fine under German PR. In fact, there’s 5 independents in the Bundestag at the moment.
Jimmy Grimble
Well-known member
Not sure if this has already been mentioned but watching and listening to Starmer post-election, I get the feeling he is a man who is going to be far more comfortable and impressive in office than in opposition. I don’t think he comes off as a natural campaigner and doesn’t have that aura of likeability about him. However, he certainly gives off the impression that he is a pragmatic administrator who will govern seriously and make sensible decisions. With time, this may well improve his likeability.
Uh_huh_him
Well-known member
- Sep 28, 2011
- 11,642
That's the hope.
armchairclubber
Well-known member
No hope with Luke Akehurst.
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There are different forms of PR though. It’s too simplistic to say it’s fair in US and not UK.
Follow the German PR model and he’d have been fine.
Uh_huh_him
Well-known member
- Sep 28, 2011
- 11,642
Is that easy to explain?
You seem stuck on this single idea of PR which I’m not actually sure ANY countries use.
Uh_huh_him
Well-known member
- Sep 28, 2011
- 11,642
That wasn't my point.
The electoral college system in Presidential elections has led to Winners in a 2 horse race who did not win the popular vote.
It is unnecessary complication on a very simple poll.
Uh_huh_him
Well-known member
- Sep 28, 2011
- 11,642
Sure.
but the argument against the current system always starts from assuming that model would be in place.
I have never seen anyone run the numbers through any other model.
I haven’t had a coffee yet! I’ll post a link instead.
Scroll down to the section titled Election
Bundestag - Wikipedia
Now that is true. I guess this is because 1) it’s easy 2) You cannot make easily make direct comparisons.
I just read there are around a hundred variations of PR around the world.
I presume if in principle you want PR, you select/develop a model with the things you want to protect eg MPs to represent their constituent.
Uh_huh_him
Well-known member
- Sep 28, 2011
- 11,642
Yeah I wouldn't be opposed to something similar to that approach, but I still think it provides too much power to populist parties.I haven’t had a coffee yet! I’ll post a link instead.
Scroll down to the section titled Election
Bundestag - Wikipedia
en.m.wikipedia.org
ROSM
Well-known member
The greens and reform have been like harry kane. Individual trophies but no team honour. To be fair to greens they were open at targeting 4 seats and then pushing in neighbouring ones hoping for a bit of osmosis. Lib dems were similar on a grander scale
What we saw and I say this as someone who saw a lot of the internal workings was that resources were moves from places that jad done enough or weren't going to win to those that were still on a knife edge. Some candidates were complaining about that but campaign discipline has been shown to work and pat mcfadden and angela rayner need to take a lot of credit for how they planned amd executed it
- Jul 10, 2003
- 27,334
This election was fought on these rules, no point moaning about the result now, however.
I believe that a lot of people are missing one of the major factors of PR when saying 'at the last election this would mean'.
With most forms of PR the current huge coalitions of Labour and Conservatives pulling one way politically and then the other, in their chase for absolute power, would cease to exist. There would be a number of Parties replacing them that would be able to stick to their political principles long term.
There would be multiple parties reflecting the views of Farage, Braverman, Galloway, Denyer, Davey etc, but also separate parties reflecting the views of Corbyn, Starmer, Cleverly, Stewart, Hunt etc
You wouldn't see the two huge coalitions swing left and right chasing power and wouldn't get left with a choice of Johnson/Corbyn
Each election, the 'winners' couldn't blame the other side as a lot of them would likely be in every Government and have to take proper responsibility for the long term implications of the decisions they make.
The British majority has, for the last few decades, voted centre left, so the chances of Harry's nightmare of a Farage/Braverman/Truss type coalition getting into power is somewhat unlikely
Much more likely is a Starmer/Stewart/Davey coalition with the occasional Cleverly or Denyer adding a few seats when necessary but having less power than Clegg had in the last Conservative/Lib Dem coalition
It's almost like grown up politics
I believe that a lot of people are missing one of the major factors of PR when saying 'at the last election this would mean'.
With most forms of PR the current huge coalitions of Labour and Conservatives pulling one way politically and then the other, in their chase for absolute power, would cease to exist. There would be a number of Parties replacing them that would be able to stick to their political principles long term.
There would be multiple parties reflecting the views of Farage, Braverman, Galloway, Denyer, Davey etc, but also separate parties reflecting the views of Corbyn, Starmer, Cleverly, Stewart, Hunt etc
You wouldn't see the two huge coalitions swing left and right chasing power and wouldn't get left with a choice of Johnson/Corbyn
Each election, the 'winners' couldn't blame the other side as a lot of them would likely be in every Government and have to take proper responsibility for the long term implications of the decisions they make.The British majority has, for the last few decades, voted centre left, so the chances of Harry's nightmare of a Farage/Braverman/Truss type coalition getting into power is somewhat unlikely
Much more likely is a Starmer/Stewart/Davey coalition with the occasional Cleverly or Denyer adding a few seats when necessary but having less power than Clegg had in the last Conservative/Lib Dem coalition
It's almost like grown up politics
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Anyway. This thread was great fun, thank you all. See you all next time.