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[News] Nigel Farage and Reform



Baldseagull

Baldseagull

Well-known member
Jan 26, 2012
11,832
Crawley
Harry Wilson's tackle said:
I'd be pissed off with the outcome but not the process. I really cannot justify changing a simple and unequivocal outcome system just to suit my own outcome preference. Without wishing to by cynical, the loudest supporters of FPTP alternatives are nearly always supporters of minority parties. Fancy that.

If the electorate has a collective spasm and gives Farage a majority then I would say, as I always do, that the people always get the governments they deserve.
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FPTP isn't unequivocal it always leaves me wondering how people would have voted if there was no need to vote tactically. It also pisses me off that a party will claim to have a clear mandate, when more than half the country voted for a different party, and many of the votes they did get were tactical. Just how major are the major parties really?
 








Simster

Simster

"the man's an arse"
Jul 7, 2003
54,797
Surrey
Harry Wilson's tackle said:
I'd be pissed off with the outcome but not the process. I really cannot justify changing a simple and unequivocal outcome system just to suit my own outcome preference. Without wishing to by cynical, the loudest supporters of FPTP alternatives are nearly always supporters of minority parties. Fancy that.

If the electorate has a collective spasm and gives Farage a majority then I would say, as I always do, that the people always get the governments they deserve.
Click to expand...
Yes, and the loudest advocates of FPTP are always Tory and Labour supporters. Fancy that.

It's shit. As @Baldseagull says, those parties talk about clear mandates with 40% of the vote, many of whom only voted for them for fear of something even less palatable. Down the years we've put up with all kinds of shit government decisions despite nobody wanting those policies: the poll tax, Rwanda, the Iraq war, there are loads of examples where stupid policies might well not have happened with consensual politics.

Oh and Labour do the country no favours by keeping it in place. The centre-left in this country is consistently under represented if the popular vote is anything to go by because the right is usually a broad church that is represented by a united Tory party so they consistently gain power with about 35-38% of the vote. (The rise of Reform has changed all that this time, but not necessarily for the better - we will see)
 








Baldseagull

Baldseagull

Well-known member
Jan 26, 2012
11,832
Crawley
schmunk said:
Whilst it is important that we maintain enfranchisement of all adults*, do we really want people who cannot navigate themselves around this not-especially-complicated system to have a meaningful impact upon the democratic process?


*(other than convicted prisoners...)
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Why not allow prisoners a vote?
 








M

Machiavelli

Well-known member
Oct 11, 2013
17,480
Fiveways
Simster said:
Yes, and the loudest advocates of FPTP are always Tory and Labour supporters. Fancy that.

It's shit. As @Baldseagull says, those parties talk about clear mandates with 40% of the vote, many of whom only voted for them for fear of something even less palatable. Down the years we've put up with all kinds of shit government decisions despite nobody wanting those policies: the poll tax, Rwanda, the Iraq war, there are loads of examples where stupid policies might well not have happened with consensual politics.

Oh and Labour do the country no favours by keeping it in place. The centre-left in this country is consistently under represented if the popular vote is anything to go by because the right is usually a broad church that is represented by a united Tory party so they consistently gain power with about 35-38% of the vote. (The rise of Reform has changed all that this time, but not necessarily for the better - we will see)
Click to expand...
You're absolutely spot on with this post. And as to the 'how major are the major parties anyway' question posed by @Baldseagull, increasingly less so. There was a bounceback in 2017 and to a lesser degree in 2019, but the long-term trajectory is the rise of parties outside of the big two.
Their high point was back in 1951 when 96% of the electorate backed them and each had more than a million members (pretty sure this was the general election with the highest turnout too, at 84%). The 'big two' may well struggle to get 60% in 2024. There are projections too that Labour will get c75% of the seats on c40% of votes (we won't have to wait too long to find this out). And to slightly rephrase the above question, how low in % votes do the 'big two' have to go before we don't have a voting system that reinforces their rule despite increasingly larger percentages of the electorate rejecting them?
 


Stato

Stato

Well-known member
Dec 21, 2011
7,160
Wikipedia has a list of Reform's front bench. Having looked them up, it seems that the gang that are promising to bring down the establishment are majority independent school educated and have worked in, or have connections to: the city, the media, the forces, property development, politics, the church, the aristocracy, business, the Football Association and the Conservative Party. Organisations that some might call... the establishment.

I suspect that none are at all self serving and that they are all just doing it to help the working people of the UK.

LeaderNigel Farage3 June 2024[20] – presentWent from Dulwich College (current fees C£50k p.a.) to a long career in the city, membership of the Conservative Party for more than a decade before leaving over Europe.
Energy and Foreign PolicyRichard Tice20 March 2023 – presentUppingham School (C£45k p.a.) Career in Property Development, donor and member of the Conservatives for most of his adult life.
HealthDavid Bull20 March 2023 – presentFramlingham College (C£38k p.a.) A few years as a junior doctor before a couple of decades in broadcast media working for Sky, C4, BBC and others.
Brexit and the UnionBen Habib20 March 2023 – presentRugby School (£45k p.a.) Worked in the city including for Lehmann Bros. then property development. Was a Conservative party member and donor.
Immigration and JusticeAnn Widdecombe20 March 2023 – presentLa Sainte Union Convent School in Bath, now closed. 4 decade career as a Conservative politician and minister. Made Dame of the Order of St. Gregory the Great by Pope Benedict XVI (Ratzinger)
Business and AgricultureRupert Lowe20 March 2023 – presentRadley College (£48k p.a.) Morgan Grenfell, Deutsche Bank and Barings, then owned a company that ran nursing homes, before becoming chairman of Southampton FC. Served as a member of the FA.
Defence and National SecurityFrederick Chedham20 March 2023 – 18 June 2024[171]Grammar school (not fee paying!) Then Sandhurst, 25 years in the army reaching the rank of colonel.
Education and the FamilyBelinda de Lucy20 March 2023 – presentEducation spokesperson, but very difficult to find out where she went to school. Given that she attended the Cartier Queen’s Cup at the Guard’s Polo Club with Lady Kitty Spencer (Diana's niece), I guess it wasn't Stanley Deason. Married to a private equity specialist, does seem to like to portray herself as a simple mother of four and drop bits of her full name: Belinda Claire De Camborne Lucy.
CultureAlex Phillips20 March 2023 – presentAnother publicly educated grammar school graduate. Journalist who has worked for ITV, Talk Radio, The Telegraph and GB News as well as UKIP and SCL Group, the parent company of Cambridge Analytica
FisheriesJune MummeryCan't find details of her education. Owns BFP Eastern fish market auctioneers.

As per @schmunk 's post below, all school fees quoted are boarders fees.
 
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Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
54,792
Faversham
Simster said:
Yes, and the loudest advocates of FPTP are always Tory and Labour supporters. Fancy that.

It's shit. As @Baldseagull says, those parties talk about clear mandates with 40% of the vote, many of whom only voted for them for fear of something even less palatable. Down the years we've put up with all kinds of shit government decisions despite nobody wanting those policies: the poll tax, Rwanda, the Iraq war, there are loads of examples where stupid policies might well not have happened with consensual politics.

Oh and Labour do the country no favours by keeping it in place. The centre-left in this country is consistently under represented if the popular vote is anything to go by because the right is usually a broad church that is represented by a united Tory party so they consistently gain power with about 35-38% of the vote. (The rise of Reform has changed all that this time, but not necessarily for the better - we will see)
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Fancy that, indeed.

Not sure how a different electoral system will change the policies and operating approach of Labour and the Tories. That would happen only if they were perpetually forced into coalitions. You speak as if only a coalition government delivers popular/fair government, and we need to dump FPTP to get a coalition. Tell that to the French, the Israelis, and (sometime soon) the Germans, where non-FPTP increasingly delivers extremism.
 




schmunk

schmunk

Centrist Dad
Jan 19, 2018
10,120
Mid mid mid Sussex
Stato said:
Wikipedia has a list of Reform's front bench. Having looked them up, it seems that the gang that are promising to bring down the establishment are majority independent school educated...
Click to expand...
Point of order: Those school fees you quoted are for boarding which I understand NF did not do. The day fees are ca. £26k p.a. - still MASSIVE, but not quite as eye-popping as the figure stated.

I CBA to check the others.
 


Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
54,792
Faversham
Baldseagull said:
FPTP isn't unequivocal it always leaves me wondering how people would have voted if there was no need to vote tactically. It also pisses me off that a party will claim to have a clear mandate, when more than half the country voted for a different party, and many of the votes they did get were tactical. Just how major are the major parties really?
Click to expand...
Yes, @Simster also criticized the 'clear mandate' lie. I don't like it when they say that, because it sounds like insecurity. It is a mandate. A mandate is all or none. Someone wins and therefore has a mandate. If they don't have a majority you get a coalition. That's how elections work.

More absurd were the Corbynistas who claimed Corbyn's policies where overwhelmingly popular after he lost two elections. It's what politicians do - see a leaking half empty cup and say it is half full and likely to get fuller.

The problem is that the population are not prepared to deal with truth. They want hubris, then they complain when all the mad promises fail to bring fruit.

And remember Starmer is being pilloried by many for under-promising and being wishy washy (the opposite of Johnson).

And as Simster also intimated, (and I will take on the logic) Labour and Tory have spent the last 90 years trying to beat each other so they can form a government. The liberals used to do the same. Of course they aren't going to focus on changing the electoral process. You won't win if your plan is to immediately concede power by changing the electoral system to reduce your chances of you (or anyone else) winning again.

Maybe we need a referendum on a change to the electoral system. I'd be happy with that (not least because I would expect a majority in favour of no change). You can imagine the campaigning:

"We tories have a strong track record of forming governments. If you back an non-FPTP option you run the risk of a coalition between Labour, Galloway, Corbyn, the SWP and the IRA. Vote FPTP!"

"We in Labour believe we can change the future of the UK to benefit everyone. There is no need to dilute our vision by forcing a coalition with the Liberals and Greens. And a non-FPTP system would risk delivering a tory coalition with Farage, the undemocratic unionists, an any number of new mad right wing populist nut cases. Vote FPTP!"

"We in the Liberals/Greens think that its Just Not Fair that despite having millions of supporters we can't get anywhere near the levers of Power. Ditch FPTP and with the resultant coalitions we might be able to induce Labour or Tories to enact some of our plans. Of course we would have to ditch most of them as part of bargaining (see Cleggy) and then our core support will skweem and skweem until they're thick. Vote No to FPTP!"

Good luck with all that, and godspeed!
 


P

portlock seagull

Well-known member
Jul 28, 2003
17,609
Reform really aren’t anything to worry too much about as a party, they’re hopelessly organised. As a functioning machine, they’re like a broken ZX spectrum compared to the more mainstream parties Apples’.

I respect people’s views, but as a party they’re complete amateurs as we’ve seen numerous times. For this reason, I’m unconcerned. Even the Lib Dem’s will get more MPs elected.
 


Stato

Stato

Well-known member
Dec 21, 2011
7,160
schmunk said:
Point of order: Those school fees you quoted are for boarding which I understand NF did not do. The day fees are ca. £26k p.a. - still MASSIVE, but not quite as eye-popping as the figure stated.

I CBA to check the others.
Click to expand...
Fair point. I assumed, apparently incorrectly, that he had boarded given the teacher's story about him marching through a Sussex village singing Hitler Youth songs. Of course the fees I quoted are also today prices, so don't really add much except an understanding that these people are from a different world to the one that their audience of residents of run down seaside towns inhabits.
 




Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
54,792
Faversham
Sid and the Sharknados said:
Genuine question (I'm not interested in having the actual argument about PR etc. with you because we've done that enough times), do you never find it difficult that "The Post" in FPTP is in a completely different place in any given election and constituency? That strikes me as exactly the sort of weird ambiguity that you'd find awkward given how you describe your autism.
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Good Q :thumbsup:

I have enough mental flexibility to train myself to be relaxed about a certain amount of inconsistency. No two constituencies are the same size. They differ in population and land size and urbanization. I am happy for a commission to draw up boundaries. Some constituencies have one, some two and some more than two 'popular' parties, depending on demographic. That's inevitable so why fight it? In the end, the national outcome is a cumulative sum of opinion in 600 or so constituencies. I am happy for the cumulative addition of individual constituency wins to define the election outcome.

It may be possible to work out an average viewpoint of the election outcome and demand government polies map to the average. But that would be silly. We would demand the average requirement of a lower taxes, much higher public pending, hanging brought back, but not lethal hanging, no immigration, more cheap housing but not anywhere near where 'I' live, and so on.

So I can accept the anomalies, and the fact that I can often go five years or more feeling angry/disappointed with the government. I get another vote after 5 years and hope renewal. I have never expected life to be fair, and I expect opportunity to be equal, but not to the extent that a one-legged man becomes eligible to star as Tarzan. If you haven't seen the Peter Cook and Dudley Moore sketch, look it up. I could say more but that will do :thumbsup:
 


Peteinblack

Peteinblack

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jun 3, 2004
4,028
Bath, Somerset.
Stato said:
Wikipedia has a list of Reform's front bench. Having looked them up, it seems that the gang that are promising to bring down the establishment are majority independent school educated and have worked in, or have connections to: the city, the media, the forces, property development, politics, the church, the aristocracy, business, the Football Association and the Conservative Party. Organisations that some might call... the establishment.

I suspect that none are at all self serving and that they are all just doing it to help the working people of the UK.

LeaderNigel Farage3 June 2024[20] – presentWent from Dulwich College (current fees C£50k p.a.) to a long career in the city, membership of the Conservative Party for more than a decade before leaving over Europe.
Energy and Foreign PolicyRichard Tice20 March 2023 – presentUppingham School (C£45k p.a.) Career in Property Development, donor and member of the Conservatives for most of his adult life.
HealthDavid Bull20 March 2023 – presentFramlingham College (C£38k p.a.) A few years as a junior doctor before a couple of decades in broadcast media working for Sky, C4, BBC and others.
Brexit and the UnionBen Habib20 March 2023 – presentRugby School (£45k p.a.) Worked in the city including for Lehmann Bros. then property development. Was a Conservative party member and donor.
Immigration and JusticeAnn Widdecombe20 March 2023 – presentLa Sainte Union Convent School in Bath, now closed. 4 decade career as a Conservative politician and minister. Made Dame of the Order of St. Gregory the Great by Pope Benedict XVI (Ratzinger)
Business and AgricultureRupert Lowe20 March 2023 – presentRadley College (£48k p.a.) Morgan Grenfell, Deutsche Bank and Barings, then owned a company that ran nursing homes, before becoming chairman of Southampton FC. Served as a member of the FA.
Defence and National SecurityFrederick Chedham20 March 2023 – 18 June 2024[171]Grammar school (not fee paying!) Then Sandhurst, 25 years in the army reaching the rank of colonel.
Education and the FamilyBelinda de Lucy20 March 2023 – presentEducation spokesperson, but very difficult to find out where she went to school. Given that she attended the Cartier Queen’s Cup at the Guard’s Polo Club with Lady Kitty Spencer (Diana's niece), I guess it wasn't Stanley Deason. Married to a private equity specialist, does seem to like to portray herself as a simple mother of four and drop bits of her full name: Belinda Claire De Camborne Lucy.
CultureAlex Phillips20 March 2023 – presentAnother publicly educated grammar school graduate. Journalist who has worked for ITV, Talk Radio, The Telegraph and GB News as well as UKIP and SCL Group, the parent company of Cambridge Analytica
FisheriesJune MummeryCan't find details of her education. Owns BFP Eastern fish market auctioneers.

As per @schmunk 's post below, all school fees quoted are boarders fees.
Click to expand...
Yet they keep persuading the hard-of-thinking that they are on the side of 'the people' against 'the elite' - and up to 21% of the electorate support them :shootself
 


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